A combat vets argument for concealed carry not open

[youngda9]

There should be a dedicated OC/CC sub-forum to put this crap. It's SOOO old. Nothing new is ever said...just the same old garbage from both sides.

 

[jeremy]

Read some posts and an essay supporting open-carry. Insightful, but they missed some important details so I thought I'd throw my hat into the arena.

A CONCEALED CARRY ARGUMENT

Welcome to INGO!

This is the real question I feel that should be addressed: How many of us are honestly trained for combat to the point that we would advertise we are ready for it? Most of us that carry are definitely not trained for it. Why risk escalation where things can go bad, fast? Combat shooting is a serious skill set radically different from range shooting. Carrying openly suggests to someone that you are ready for trouble and that someone looking for trouble will find it. To a criminal, you are also advertising that you are trouble. To bystanders and responding police, you are advertising that you MIGHT be trouble. Bystanders don't know the difference until you part ways.

I'm very well-trained in close quarters combat shooting and in most (not all) situations as a citizen if faced with armed perpetrators, say robbing a store, I would not pull the gun unless there was no other choice. A few important reasons why:

Actually, you might be surprised by how many OC’ers in this State choose to Educate themselves both on the Legalities of Carrying, and the TTPs (Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures) involved in Carrying a Firearm. I would be willing to wager that out of a random 100 OC’ers, and a random 100 LEOs, the higher percentage of Training and Knowledge on the Carry and use of a Firearm would probably go to a the OC’ers…

I would even be willing to wager that you might actually find yourself in the lower end of the I have training category…

1) rule number four of combat shooting - know your target and what's behind it. Chances are people are behind the perp so you have to look for a shot or create one. The criminal might not have any such reservations. I have a high degree of confidence I'll hit what I'm aiming at. The criminal probably will not under that much stress. Collateral damage is common in urban gunbattles.

2) money and material possessions, whether insured or not, are not worth the life of SOMEONE ELSE. Innocent people can get hurt. Bullets very often travel through barriers and can still wound if not kill. Why take the chance unless absolutely necessary? Better to get the plate # and description of a car or of the suspect for law enforcement.

I am going to address these two combined…
It is my choice as a Carrier of a Firearm on whether or not to engage any threat I so choose depending on the Situation, regardless of the carry techniques used. So your point one and two are slightly less than useless to your side of the Discussion.

3) Taking a life is not something to be taken lightly. Now if it's between you/innocent person and a criminal shooter, it's two in the chest, one in the head of the shooter every day of the week and twice on Sunday. But make no mistake, there is a price to pay. You'll never be the same after something like that.

Taking a Life is not something to be taken lightly, the Price you refer to also depends on the Persons Psyche and Training on whether or not they will have issues at a Future Date or Not. I sleep fine, although I no longer watch Horror Films.

4) If things go badly, and I think we can all agree they can, you might save the day, and still wind up sued or worse, charged with a crime if things aren't clean. The broader issue: threat assessment and the application of force. If you wear a gun for the world to see, you better be prepared to use it. But is it even justifiable? Unless it's life or death, is it really worth it?

I would change this to if you wear a Firearm no matter how you Choose to Carry it, you had better be prepared to use it. Not only that, but have an Attorney’s Number as a go to for when you ever have to shoot something or someone.

By the way I HIGHLY recommend that you seek training in the Legalities of the use of your Firearm. AS it sounds like you are sorrowfully lacking on that by some of your thoughts in this Essay of yours.

I'm not sure about where everybody lives, but people around here that open carry have a tendency to get questioned by police, sometimes with the cuffs on, until their identity is verified. This is a regional matter obviously. But why do they do this in a suburb? Because we're not in Tombstone or Dodge City we're in the suburbs. It has nothing to do with Second Amendment violations and open-carry laws. It's because in this day and age, guns carried openly in the hands of a stranger scares the bejezzuz out of most law-abiding citizens. That's the media's fault to some degree, but the reality is we have mass shootings happening all over the world. It has undeniably had a psychological effect on the populace.

I am very curious as to where you live at. Do you even live in the State of Indiana?! I have OC’d across most of the State, and have yet to encounter anything like you describe. From either Non-Carriers or from LEOs.

Even as a combat veteran who carries concealed, when I see someone carrying openly, my first thought is, why the hell are they carrying the gun? Should I feel at ease that a complete stranger is openly armed in public? And most importantly, this thought always crosses my mind: Is this person responsible enough with that gun not to get us all killed getting involved in something they might not be trained for, i.e. COMBAT.

My thoughts when I see someone OC’ing. Bet they have an LTCH, and they generally drop a notch or two on my threat assessment, over someone that I notice is CC’ing. CC’ers, unless I know that person is very difficult to know whether or not that person is legally carrying in accordance with the State’s Laws or not, without confronting them and asking if they have an LTCH.

Some things to consider about open-carry: Do you really want to make an armed robber even more nervous when they see your weapon carried openly after barging into a store? They're unlikely to see it until they are in the place. Gauging or rather "gambling" on how a criminal is going to react is dangerous and it could be fatal. They come in and see your gun, you see them, maybe you instinctively reach for the gun, maybe even hesitate...there's more than a few things that can go wrong here. That kind of stress leads people to do things you would not always expect.
Stats teach us nothing about deterrant because you can't track crimes that don't take place because of open-carry. While most criminals are unlikely to break into a house of a gun-owner, how many criminals really avoid actual crimes because of open-carry? No way to track that info realistically.

If a perp runs into the store armed and sees your gun, you have now become priority number one. Is that safer for you and the others around you? The money the perp wants is insured. Unless he's shooting people, he most likely wants the money and to leave. Everybody else wants to survive. Consider whether it's worth the trouble that can potentially be caused. It could escalate the situation into a fatal encounter in what otherwise would have been survivable. Your decision to openly carry, or even use your gun is one that is made for every person in the area.

You are babbling here. There are SEVERAL DOJ studies which have been conducted over the last couple of Decades which blatantly destroy your points here in both of these paragraphs…

I concede carrying concealed is not useful if the gun is not readily accessible. Mine can be reached and effectively used in seconds (Combat reflexive shooting). A lot of practice and training went into it. I respect everyone's opinion who wants to carry openly but I think it's selfish to just say, well the housewife with her four kids at the grocery store needs to get used to seeing guns on our hips. Carrying is a way of life and a tremendous responsibility. Gunfights are rarely ever clean, and somebody almost always gets hurt. Most rounds fired in combat, even by trained professionals, are not on target. That's an absolute fact. Mostly because people are almost always moving and because of stress. Moving and shooting is a skill well-beyond what even experienced range shooters are capable of. Especially if bystanders are involved.

I have an experiment for you that we can do. I think we can locate a couple of Airsoft Pistols, I’ll OC mine in my normal daily OC rig, you CC yours in your normal rig, and we’ll see how much time that saves you.

The rest of this paragraph is more of you blah, blah, blahing. Are you related to Charlie Browns Teacher?!

Personally, I think someone that wants to carry should do what the U.S. military teaches it's operators to do when in plain clothes: Carry concealed where you can access the gun rapidly if you ever needed to. Train harder and more effectively rather than trust your life and everyone else's to the presumption that a criminal will respond the way you want them to.

Really, they must have changed that in the last year or so...

Better yet, I’ll send out an email to a couple of the guys I know in the Boys Clubs and see what the exact policies are at the Groups and the Batts…

 

[Denny347]

So please tell me Vic how military combat, hunting down insurgents and other enemies, navigating hostile territory with a team of armed and trained soldiers, all while evading enemy capture and IED's... is the same thing as me defending myself and my family from an attack.

I'll wait...

Combat means more than military conflicts.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/combat

com·bat (km-bt, kmbt)
v. com·bat·ed or com·bat·ted, com·bat·ing or com·bat·ting, com·bats
v.tr.
1. To oppose in battle; fight against.
2. To oppose vigorously; struggle against. See Synonyms at oppose.
v.intr.
To engage in fighting; contend or struggle.
n. (kmbt)
Fighting, especially armed battle; strife. See Synonyms at conflict.
adj. (kmbt)
1. Of or relating to combat: flew 50 combat missions.
2. Intended for use or deployment in combat: combat boots; combat troops.

Trust me, if you are fighting for your life, you are in combat. I guess my title as a "Combatives" Instructor means I teach the art of hunting down insurgents, navigate hostile territory...etc. I do not. I teach how to survive armed conflicts and ground fighting.

 

[repeter1977]

Welcome to INGO!


Actually, you might be surprised by how many OC’ers in this State choose to Educate themselves both on the Legalities of Carrying, and the TTPs (Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures) involved in Carrying a Firearm. I would be willing to wager that out of a random 100 OC’ers, and a random 100 LEOs, the higher percentage of Training and Knowledge on the Carry and use of a Firearm would probably go to a the OC’ers…

I would even be willing to wager that you might actually find yourself in the lower end of the I have training category…


I am going to address these two combined…
It is my choice as a Carrier of a Firearm on whether or not to engage any threat I so choose depending on the Situation, regardless of the carry techniques used. So your point one and two are slightly less than useless to your side of the Discussion.



Taking a Life is not something to be taken lightly, the Price you refer to also depends on the Persons Psyche and Training on whether or not they will have issues at a Future Date or Not. I sleep fine, although I no longer watch Horror Films.


I would change this to if you wear a Firearm no matter how you Choose to Carry it, you had better be prepared to use it. Not only that, but have an Attorney’s Number as a go to for when you ever have to shoot something or someone.

By the way I HIGHLY recommend that you seek training in the Legalities of the use of your Firearm. AS it sounds like you are sorrowfully lacking on that by some of your thoughts in this Essay of yours.


I am very curious as to where you live at. Do you even live in the State of Indiana?! I have OC’d across most of the State, and have yet to encounter anything like you describe. From either Non-Carriers or from LEOs.


My thoughts when I see someone OC’ing. Bet they have an LTCH, and they generally drop a notch or two on my threat assessment, over someone that I notice is CC’ing. CC’ers, unless I know that person is very difficult to know whether or not that person is legally carrying in accordance with the State’s Laws or not, without confronting them and asking if they have an LTCH.


You are babbling here. There are SEVERAL DOJ studies which have been conducted over the last couple of Decades which blatantly destroy your points here in both of these paragraphs…


I have an experiment for you that we can do. I think we can locate a couple of Airsoft Pistols, I’ll OC mine in my normal daily OC rig, you CC yours in your normal rig, and we’ll see how much time that saves you.

The rest of this paragraph is more of you blah, blah, blahing. Are you related to Charlie Browns Teacher?!


Really, they must have changed that in the last year or so...

Better yet, I’ll send out an email to a couple of the guys I know in the Boys Clubs and see what the exact policies are at the Groups and the Batts…

Pretty sure they conceal or open carry based on the mission. If they are "undercover" then no duh, they are carrying concealed. If they are on regular Army missions (we wont go into names here), then im sure they open carry, as wasting time to dig out a pistol when you have a rifle strapped to your chest is just silly

 

[Hoosierdood]

Combat means more than military conflicts.

combat - definition of combat by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

com·bat (km-bt, kmbt)
v. com·bat·ed or com·bat·ted, com·bat·ing or com·bat·ting, com·bats
v.tr.
1. To oppose in battle; fight against.
2. To oppose vigorously; struggle against. See Synonyms at oppose.
v.intr.
To engage in fighting; contend or struggle.
n. (kmbt)
Fighting, especially armed battle; strife. See Synonyms at conflict.
adj. (kmbt)
1. Of or relating to combat: flew 50 combat missions.
2. Intended for use or deployment in combat: combat boots; combat troops.

Trust me, if you are fighting for your life, you are in combat. I guess my title as a "Combatives" Instructor means I teach the art of hunting down insurgents, navigate hostile territory...etc. I do not. I teach how to survive armed conflicts and ground fighting.

The question is whether your definition of combat is the same as the definition of combat that the OP has. By asserting himself as a "combat vet", it is assumed that he is referring to military action. His premise is that since he has military training and experience, he automatically is better prepared for conflict. Denny, go back and read my posts. I'm not saying that training is bad. I'm saying that just because you have military training, that doesn't necessarily mean that you are prepared for non-military self defense.

 

[Denny347]

The question is whether your definition of combat is the same as the definition of combat that the OP has. By asserting himself as a "combat vet", it is assumed that he is referring to military action. His premise is that since he has military training and experience, he automatically is better prepared for conflict. Denny, go back and read my posts. I'm not saying that training is bad. I'm saying that just because you have military training, that doesn't necessarily mean that you are prepared for non-military self defense.

I got it-point taken.

 

[jsharmon7]

Screw this OC vs. CC crap. I'm going to start HC (Hand Carry) everywhere I go.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-5V2ZbX4i4[/ame]

 

[buckstopshere]

I don't so much mind the OC/CC threads as much as I can't stand the crop dusting posts. The OP drops a controversial post, then disappears like a fart in the wind.

For the record, I OC and only CC when I don't feel like tucking in my shirt. No one else's opinion will change that.

 

[Fixer]

I prefer not to call it COMBAT. I don't want anyone to associate me with those crazy millitia guys. Everyone know those guys are terrorists!

 

[LockStocksAndBarrel]

OP: Since you just copied and pasted this thread opener from your post on the "Open Carry Argument" thread, I'll do pretty much the same:

Your 4 points make no difference if you OC or CC. They are open to discussion for either method of carry. None of them are applicable reasons to CC.

Your only real argument is that you'll be shot first by the bad guy if you OC. That argument has been refuted at least a dozen times in this thread (and others).

Old Paint is really, really, really, really, really, really dead.

ETA: Welcome to INGO and thanks for joining the discussion...and thanks for your service.

 

[CPT Nervous]

Hey OP,

 

[CPT Nervous]

I really can't say anything that hasn't been said. Damn my sleeping in this morning!!!

 

[Kagnew]

Read some posts and an essay supporting open-carry. Insightful, but they missed some important details so I thought I'd throw my hat into the arena.

A CONCEALED CARRY ARGUMENT

This is the real question I feel that should be addressed: How many of us are honestly trained for combat to the point that we would advertise we are ready for it? Most of us that carry are definitely not trained for it. Why risk escalation where things can go bad, fast? Combat shooting is a serious skill set radically different from range shooting. Carrying openly suggests to someone that you are ready for trouble and that someone looking for trouble will find it. To a criminal, you are also advertising that you are trouble. To bystanders and responding police, you are advertising that you MIGHT be trouble. Bystanders don't know the difference until you part ways.

I'm very well-trained in close quarters combat shooting and in most (not all) situations as a citizen if faced with armed perpetrators, say robbing a store, I would not pull the gun unless there was no other choice. A few important reasons why:

1) rule number four of combat shooting - know your target and what's behind it. Chances are people are behind the perp so you have to look for a shot or create one. The criminal might not have any such reservations. I have a high degree of confidence I'll hit what I'm aiming at. The criminal probably will not under that much stress. Collateral damage is common in urban gunbattles.

2) money and material possessions, whether insured or not, are not worth the life of SOMEONE ELSE. Innocent people can get hurt. Bullets very often travel through barriers and can still wound if not kill. Why take the chance unless absolutely necessary? Better to get the plate # and description of a car or of the suspect for law enforcement.

3) Taking a life is not something to be taken lightly. Now if it's between you/innocent person and a criminal shooter, it's two in the chest, one in the head of the shooter every day of the week and twice on Sunday. But make no mistake, there is a price to pay. You'll never be the same after something like that.

4) If things go badly, and I think we can all agree they can, you might save the day, and still wind up sued or worse, charged with a crime if things aren't clean. The broader issue: threat assessment and the application of force. If you wear a gun for the world to see, you better be prepared to use it. But is it even justifiable? Unless it's life or death, is it really worth it?

I'm not sure about where everybody lives, but people around here that open carry have a tendency to get questioned by police, sometimes with the cuffs on, until their identity is verified. This is a regional matter obviously. But why do they do this in a suburb? Because we're not in Tombstone or Dodge City we're in the suburbs. It has nothing to do with Second Amendment violations and open-carry laws. It's because in this day and age, guns carried openly in the hands of a stranger scares the bejezzuz out of most law-abiding citizens. That's the media's fault to some degree, but the reality is we have mass shootings happening all over the world. It has undeniably had a psychological effect on the populace.

Even as a combat veteran who carries concealed, when I see someone carrying openly, my first thought is, why the hell are they carrying the gun? Should I feel at ease that a complete stranger is openly armed in public? And most importantly, this thought always crosses my mind: Is this person responsible enough with that gun not to get us all killed getting involved in something they might not be trained for, i.e. COMBAT.

Some things to consider about open-carry: Do you really want to make an armed robber even more nervous when they see your weapon carried openly after barging into a store? They're unlikely to see it until they are in the place. Gauging or rather "gambling" on how a criminal is going to react is dangerous and it could be fatal. They come in and see your gun, you see them, maybe you instinctively reach for the gun, maybe even hesitate...there's more than a few things that can go wrong here. That kind of stress leads people to do things you would not always expect.
Stats teach us nothing about deterrant because you can't track crimes that don't take place because of open-carry. While most criminals are unlikely to break into a house of a gun-owner, how many criminals really avoid actual crimes because of open-carry? No way to track that info realistically.

If a perp runs into the store armed and sees your gun, you have now become priority number one. Is that safer for you and the others around you? The money the perp wants is insured. Unless he's shooting people, he most likely wants the money and to leave. Everybody else wants to survive. Consider whether it's worth the trouble that can potentially be caused. It could escalate the situation into a fatal encounter in what otherwise would have been survivable. Your decision to openly carry, or even use your gun is one that is made for every person in the area.

I concede carrying concealed is not useful if the gun is not readily accessible. Mine can be reached and effectively used in seconds (Combat reflexive shooting). A lot of practice and training went into it. I respect everyone's opinion who wants to carry openly but I think it's selfish to just say, well the housewife with her four kids at the grocery store needs to get used to seeing guns on our hips. Carrying is a way of life and a tremendous responsibility. Gunfights are rarely ever clean, and somebody almost always gets hurt. Most rounds fired in combat, even by trained professionals, are not on target. That's an absolute fact. Mostly because people are almost always moving and because of stress. Moving and shooting is a skill well-beyond what even experienced range shooters are capable of. Especially if bystanders are involved.

Personally, I think someone that wants to carry should do what the U.S. military teaches it's operators to do when in plain clothes: Carry concealed where you can access the gun rapidly if you ever needed to. Train harder and more effectively rather than trust your life and everyone else's to the presumption that a criminal will respond the way you want them to.

One of the best posts I've seen on here. Very good!

 

[Kagnew]

Training???? Who needs training? Buy gun + carry gun = ready for STHF.

You did mean to post this in purple, didn't you?

 

[CPT Nervous]

One of the best posts I've seen on here. Very good!

You did mean to post this in purple, didn't you?

 

[edporch]

Some individuals carry concealed because that works best for them.

Some individuals carry open because that works best for them.

Not much to see here...

 

[Kagnew]

You did mean to post this in purple, didn't you?

No, I didn't. I applaud the OP for having the 'nads to buck what is obviously considered "politically correct" on this forum.

 

[88GT]

You did mean to post this in purple, didn't you?

You did mean to post this in purple, didn't you?

CPT, that was my thought too.

Wonder if there's a relationship between being rabidly pro-training (to the point where you start to pass judgment on those who don't train to your expectations) and being rabidly anti-OC.

Both seem to demand certain behaviors from others.

 

[hooky]

Meh, OP's thoughts on carry in general strike me as someone who would also post, "I'm all for the 2nd amendment, but (insert pro gun control idea here)".

 

[jeremy]

Meh, OP's thoughts on carry in general strike me as someone who would also post, "I'm all for the 2nd amendment, but (insert pro gun control idea here)".

Yep...