A combat vets argument for concealed carry not open

[blamecharles]

OP TLDR

If you need a response see ATM's as it and TF's are all i would have said anyways.

ETA: Did you hide your guns during combat? I don't remember that training when i served.

 

[gdog243]

Mongoose What A great post. Very simple and to the point but some people just don't get it.

 

[indyjoe]

Can everyone grab a stick and help me out? I can't do all this beating on my own.

 

[88GT]

And now that I've read it:

I'm very well-trained in close quarters combat shooting and in most (not all) situations as a citizen if faced with armed perpetrators, say robbing a store, I would not pull the gun unless there was no other choice. A few important reasons why:

Isn't that independent of the visibility of the firearm?

1) rule number four of combat shooting - know your target and what's behind it. Chances are people are behind the perp so you have to look for a shot or create one. The criminal might not have any such reservations. I have a high degree of confidence I'll hit what I'm aiming at. The criminal probably will not under that much stress. Collateral damage is common in urban gunbattles.

Actually, that's just Rule #4 of plain old gun handling.

So I should be victimized for fear of collateral damage?

2) money and material possessions, whether insured or not, are not worth the life of SOMEONE ELSE. Innocent people can get hurt. Bullets very often travel through barriers and can still wound if not kill. Why take the chance unless absolutely necessary? Better to get the plate # and description of a car or of the suspect for law enforcement.

Again, how is this related to OC? Isn't it just an argument for safe gun handling?

3) Taking a life is not something to be taken lightly. Now if it's between you/innocent person and a criminal shooter, it's two in the chest, one in the head of the shooter every day of the week and twice on Sunday. But make no mistake, there is a price to pay. You'll never be the same after something like that.

Neither will the perp, and that's what I'm counting on.

I won't feel a shred of guilt for reducing the oxygen load on the planet.

4) If things go badly, and I think we can all agree they can, you might save the day, and still wind up sued or worse, charged with a crime if things aren't clean. The broader issue: threat assessment and the application of force. If you wear a gun for the world to see, you better be prepared to use it. But is it even justifiable? Unless it's life or death, is it really worth it?

Is there an echo in here? Once again, why is this unique to OC?

I'm not sure about where everybody lives, but people around here that open carry have a tendency to get questioned by police, sometimes with the cuffs on, until their identity is verified. This is a regional matter obviously. But why do they do this in a suburb? Because we're not in Tombstone or Dodge City we're in the suburbs. It has nothing to do with Second Amendment violations and open-carry laws. It's because in this day and age, guns carried openly in the hands of a stranger scares the bejezzuz out of most law-abiding citizens. That's the media's fault to some degree, but the reality is we have mass shootings happening all over the world. It has undeniably had a psychological effect on the populace.

So you're saying that because people are ignorant and have an irrational fear, I shouldn't exercise my right as I see fit and am legally allowed to do? Okay, everybody, you heard that. No more pit bull ownership. People are afraid of them.

Even as a combat veteran who carries concealed, when I see someone carrying openly, my first thought is, why the hell are they carrying the gun? Should I feel at ease that a complete stranger is openly armed in public? And most importantly, this thought always crosses my mind: Is this person responsible enough with that gun not to get us all killed getting involved in something they might not be trained for, i.e. COMBAT.

WTF!?!?!?!?!

Some things to consider about open-carry: Do you really want to make an armed robber even more nervous when they see your weapon carried openly after barging into a store? They're unlikely to see it until they are in the place.

I think you have too much faith in the criminal's situational awareness.

Gauging or rather "gambling" on how a criminal is going to react is dangerous and it could be fatal.

Lots of things in life could be fatal. I'll install my bubble room today. Happy?

Stats teach us nothing about deterrant because you can't track crimes that don't take place because of open-carry. While most criminals are unlikely to break into a house of a gun-owner, how many criminals really avoid actual crimes because of open-carry? No way to track that info realistically.

Wait. If you admit that a gun deters crime, then why wouldn't OC deter crime? Instead, your entire premise is that it's more like to make the perp worse. C'mon now.

I concede carrying concealed is not useful if the gun is not readily accessible. Mine can be reached and effectively used in seconds (Combat reflexive shooting). A lot of practice and training went into it. I respect everyone's opinion who wants to carry openly but I think it's selfish to just say, well the housewife with her four kids at the grocery store needs to get used to seeing guns on our hips.

HA! What if the housewife IS the one OCing?

Selfish for OCers to tell other people to "get used to it," but not selfish for an anti-OCer to tell OCers they're wrong? Gotcha.

Carrying is a way of life and a tremendous responsibility. Gunfights are rarely ever clean, and somebody almost always gets hurt. Most rounds fired in combat, even by trained professionals, are not on target. That's an absolute fact. Mostly because people are almost always moving and because of stress. Moving and shooting is a skill well-beyond what even experienced range shooters are capable of. Especially if bystanders are involved.

So what? You made an argument for staying home and never leaving the house. Not for CCing.

Personally, I think someone that wants to carry should do what the U.S. military teaches it's operators to do when in plain clothes: Carry concealed where you can access the gun rapidly if you ever needed to.

Personally, I think people should quit telling others how to live their lives.

Train harder and more effectively rather than trust your life and everyone else's to the presumption that a criminal will respond the way you want them to.

Well, if I OC'd because I thought it was going to influence the criminal's behavior, you might have a point.

I have no problem with those who prefer to carry concealed and support their choice, so I'll just respond to a few of these points for the sake of discussion.

A few? Hard not to address all the silliness, isn't it?

 

[Blackhawk2001]

I understand all the points made in this thread, and, except for the OP who is a new guy, yes, all these points have been made before. Now that the new guy has been properly chastised for sharing his opinion, let's all go back to work. Or whatever.

 

[88GT]

Mongoose What A great post. Very simple and to the point but some people just don't get it.

Get what?

 

[jeremy]

tagging in...

 

[Hoosierdood]

tagging in...

 

[blamecharles]

TLDR

 

[Stschil]

10 posts in and you've decided to take on a subject like this?

Well, Mr Yeager, let's put it this way. Your post is tantamount to walking purposely into a bank robbery in progress carrying a bazooka. And you're arguing against Open Carrying because it draws attention and makes one a target?

HELLO...

 

[blamecharles]

Get what?

I thought the same thing.

I get it I just don't agree.

As i have recently stated in the OC/CC Argument thread i am now a JFC'er Just Freaking Carry. Maybe i need to be a JFCTWYCALMTHAAHICTC. That would be Just Freaking Carry The Way You Choose And Leave Me The Hell Alone About How I Choose To Carry'er.

 

[Hoosierdood]

I thought the same thing.

I get it I just don't agree.

As i have recently stated in the OC/CC Argument thread i am now a JFC'er Just Freaking Carry. Maybe i need to be a JFCTWYCALMTHAAHICTC. That would be Just Freaking Carry The Way You Choose And Leave Me The Hell Alone About How I Choose To Carry'er.

TL;DR

 

[Rookie]

BS/DR

 

[Titanium_Frost]

10 posts in and you've decided to take on a subject like this?

Well, Mr Yeager, let's put it this way. Your post is tantamount to walking purposely into a bank robbery in progress carrying a bazooka. And you're arguing against Open Carrying because it draws attention and makes one a target?

HELLO...​

It isn't Yeager. He praised a 1911 and recommended a Sig.

 

[blamecharles]

Oh crap... You mean to tell me that horse ain't dead yet?

All of the beating is acting as Compression only CPR.

 

[Stschil]

It isn't Yeager. He praised a 1911 and recommended a Sig.

As always, I am amazed by your situational awareness, Ben

Good call.

 

[longbow]

OC vs CC

I OC'd a glock 17 on a thigh rig, tan pants with the black rig last Saturday. Went to the gas station, Kroger and CVS and an ice cream shop.

No one gave a second look.

 

[Stschil]

OC vs CC

I OC'd a glock 17 on a thigh rig, tan pants with the black rig last Saturday. Went to the gas station, Kroger and CVS and an ice cream shop.

No one gave a second look.

That was you??? I would have said HI, but I knew by the OC that you were looking' fer trubble...

 

[Citizen711]

Some very good points worth considering. However, I do take a bit of issue with one of the prevailing concepts of your post.

To bystanders and responding police, you are advertising that you MIGHT be trouble. Bystanders don't know the difference until you part ways.

I'm not sure about where everybody lives, but people around here that open carry have a tendency to get questioned by police, sometimes with the cuffs on, until their identity is verified. This is a regional matter obviously. But why do they do this in a suburb? Because we're not in Tombstone or Dodge City we're in the suburbs. It has nothing to do with Second Amendment violations and open-carry laws. It's because in this day and age, guns carried openly in the hands of a stranger scares the bejezzuz out of most law-abiding citizens. That's the media's fault to some degree, but the reality is we have mass shootings happening all over the world. It has undeniably had a psychological effect on the populace.

It is *very much* about violations of our Second Amendment rights. If I am ever detained in cuffs, simply because I am OC'ing, you can bet my next day will be spend on the phone with a dozen attorneys, devising my litigation strategy.

The effect the mass shooting nut jobs have had on people is undeniable. However, the knee-jerk response by the populace (viewing anyone carrying a weapon as a threat) is unreasonable. This reaction is cultivated and nurtured by the mainstream media and generations of citizens who have become complacent in the relative safety in which they live. It's akin to a person believing that, since neither they nor anyone they know has ever been struck by lightning, it's safe to take their evening strolls during a thunderstorm, because lightning just doesn't really strike people anymore.

Even as a combat veteran who carries concealed, when I see someone carrying openly, my first thought is, why the hell are they carrying the gun?

Why is that? Do you honestly think a high percentage of perpetrators of gun violence openly carry? I've not looked up the numbers, but I would wager this is not the case.

Should I feel at ease that a complete stranger is openly armed in public?

Yes, for all the reasons that have been discussed on this forum ad nauseum.

And most importantly, this thought always crosses my mind: Is this person responsible enough with that gun not to get us all killed getting involved in something they might not be trained for, i.e. COMBAT.

Well, that just goes along with the core level of responsibility everyone should assume when they decide to carry a firearm. The fact is that the conditions where deploying a firearm are appropriate are fairly well spelled out in the state's gun statutes. We are all expected to know the local law of the land. Just as with operating a motor vehicle, heavy machinery or piloting an airplane, the more potentially dangerous a particular lawful activity may be, the more critical it is to know the law in that regard.

Stats teach us nothing about deterrant because you can't track crimes that don't take place because of open-carry. While most criminals are unlikely to break into a house of a gun-owner, how many criminals really avoid actual crimes because of open-carry? No way to track that info realistically.

You're right. There's no way to track that, beyond common sense. Put yourself in their shoes. You walk into a business, intent on robbing the place. You don't select the location by throwing darts at a map. You select it based on opportunity and the likelihood of getting away with the crime. When you walk into the place and see a patron or two open carrying, that likelihood clearly just went down.

In the end, these are all merely hypotheses. There is no way we can have a good idea of how that sort of thing would play out. All I *do* know is that if I were faced with the choice between robbing a business where the patrons are carrying and one where they aren't, I know which one I would choose.

 

[repeter1977]

Don't lump all us combat vets in with you. I know most military training is ineffective. We train for combat, either force on force, or street to street. Im hoping that on the Main Streets of America, that you dont feel the need to carry your M4, with your combat load everywhere on you.

As I stated just a second ago, I have seen even troops with additional training make mistakes. Believe it or not, there are probably more civilians that open carry that have actual real life training, as well as great shoot/no shooting school trainings. Never think that you know more then everyone else because. Types of training matters a bit as well. Like you stated, you are trained in close quarters combat, well, how many grenades do you plan on using to clear the house? Do you already have arty plotted? What about your fall backs and rendezvous? Have your LP OP out, for when you go to get something? Also, in the military, you never train to fight by yourself. You are always in a team doing something. Well, in the civilian world, unless you just happen to hang out with your squad 24/7, then sounds like you are on your own. And since everyone already knows it, welcome to the world bub.
Personally, I care less if its Concealed Carry, Open Carried, or 100 MPH taped to the back carried. Have the LTCH permit, follow the law, and you are great to go in my book.