2016 centerfire deer rifle push?

[Paul30]

As far as a minimum magazine capacity law I don't see why anyone would want the extra weight of a 30 round magazine or need that many shots. I couldn't imagine someone pulling that off with a 30 round magazine but that would definitely make me nervous if I came across something like that.

In some cases, it's not about "needing" something, but about not having to purchase special gear to hunt when you already own something that would work fine. An SKS with the fixed 10 round magazine would be a perfect deer rifle for someone who was on a budget. I already own lots of 20 and 30 round magazines, I should not have to purchase a 10 or 5 round magazine just to calm someone's false fears. I don't hunt, but my entire family does. I'm watching this thread because my dad is getting older, and that 12 gauge with a deer slug is hard on his shoulders at his age. I offered my lever action 44 magnum, I just happen to have one. It's silly for Hoosiers to not be able to use a normal rifle the rest of the country uses. If some are afraid it will be dangerous, maybe put out a set of safety rules. Perhaps "never point the gun at anything you aren't willing to destroy" or "Always be certain of your target, AND what is beyond it". I spoke to a coworker once about the topic, and he said people might get shot since the bullet traveled so far. I asked him who he knew that shot at something where the bullet would not stop if it over penetrated or missed the deer? He said everyone, if I actually waited until there was a shot perfectly safe I would never get a shot. I shook my head, since he was telling me about his neighbors who were shooting a 44 magnum at targets with a brush pile for a backstop. His wife had to get him because bullets were zipping by her after going through a brush pile. Stupid people will do stupid things, but a rifle round is more likely to drill into the ground and stop as opposed to skipping off it and finding a victim. I am for the center fire rifle hunting, it would allow more clean kills of deer, and less wounded ones that go off and die later. I wonder how many of the deer population die after a bad shot from a shotgun and have the hunter shoot another one because wounded deer that aren't recovered don't count against your deer tags.

 

[Paul30]

And how accurate are those AK pistols with 30 round mags?

My guess is that even with a trigger swap to good they'd be a 50 yard and in rig.
Pretty clunky they are.

There's a reason why you don't see a bunch of them in the woods.

The round can be pretty accurate out to 500 yards in a rifle, some can shoot a pistol as well as a rifle if set up well. I know a guy who hunts deer with a 308 and can put a few rounds in the same hole at 200 yards. Great little scoped pistol with just under 16 inch barrel on a rest, and he uses the rest hunting. I built a 7.62 x 39 upper on an AR years ago for the cheaper ammo and a new experience. It shoots well, and the 30 round magazines work fine for it too. I like the 20 round magazines better, less hanging down for my bench rest shooting.

http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/ab348/Killshot44_bucket/762x39_123gr_ballistics-2.jpg

 

[clfergus]

I can't say that I am against a politician getting involved in this debate and introducing this bill when I am sure that politics come into play from the DNRs end when making decisions.

Having it come through the legislative branch might force the DNR to take those of us who would like to see SMARTER changes more seriously. The more debate the better, having one governing body hold all of the cards like DNR does is not always a good thing. I have nothing against the DNR but an open discussion on all topics is best in my opinion.

DNR introduced the whole rifle debate last year and then killed it based on input against the bill as a whole. How about they take time to evaluate which calibers are currently illegal against what we can use now.

Based on everything I have read about calibers like 30-30 and 35 REM there isn't a huge difference in the effective killing range of those rounds vs. our modern muzzleloader rounds. I think most people would warm up to a phased caliber introduction vs. having the door slammed shut all together.

 

[avboiler11]

A phased approach makes sense, if only to prove the pearl clutchers' fears unfounded...why we haven't seen it in the original DNR proposal or this bill is kind of beyond me.

Step 1: Reduce minimum rifle caliber to 6mm, while maintaining the 1.800" OAL limit. This instantly allows 300 Blackout, 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel, and a host of other SAAMI and wildcat chamberings, while the short case length limit reduces powder capacity and projectile velocity/range. Institute a 10 round magazine limit for whitetail hunting at this step. There could also be a specific named inclusion of certain chamberings such as 30-30, 35 Rem, etc. at this step.

Step 2: Extend max case length limit to 2.100". This allows for pretty much all standard short action cartridges including 243, 308, etc. as well as the 30-30 Winchester and SAUM/WSM chamberings...but would exclude 7.62x54R for those concerned about the milsurp crowd.

Step 3: Extend max case length limit to 2.550". This allows for most standard bolt face long action cartridges including 270, 280, 30-06.

If the deer hunting world doesn't end after these three steps, the max case length limit could then possibly be lengthened to 2.62" allowing traditional belted magnum rounds including 300WM, while purposefully excluding heavy hitters like 338LM and 50BMG.

 

[cschwanz]

A phased approach makes sense, if only to prove the pearl clutchers' fears unfounded...why we haven't seen it in the original DNR proposal or this bill is kind of beyond me.

Step 1: Reduce minimum rifle caliber to 6mm, while maintaining the 1.800" OAL limit. This instantly allows 300 Blackout, 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel, and a host of other SAAMI and wildcat chamberings, while the short case length limit reduces powder capacity and projectile velocity/range. Institute a 10 round magazine limit for whitetail hunting at this step. There could also be a specific named inclusion of certain chamberings such as 30-30, 35 Rem, etc. at this step.

Step 2: Extend max case length limit to 2.100". This allows for pretty much all standard short action cartridges including 243, 308, etc. as well as the 30-30 Winchester and SAUM/WSM chamberings...but would exclude 7.62x54R for those concerned about the milsurp crowd.

Step 3: Extend max case length limit to 2.550". This allows for most standard bolt face long action cartridges including 270, 280, 30-06.

If the deer hunting world doesn't end after these three steps, the max case length limit could then possibly be lengthened to 2.62" allowing traditional belted magnum rounds including 300WM, while purposefully excluding heavy hitters like 338LM and 50BMG.

The internet is no place for common sense and good ideas....

 

[MRP2003]

2.1" WOULD ALLOW 325 WSM & 300 WSM. I WOULD BE GOOD WITH THAT!!!!

1.8" WOULD ALLOW 243 WSSM. I WOULD BE GOOD WITH AS WELL!!!

Either way, a phased approach of allowing it during a specified season on private land is better than nothing. It would be a first step and after 2 years, they would probably allow it either on public land or during regular gun season on private land with the final phase of opening it up to being part of gun season for everyone. They could even restrict it in some counties due to population.

 

[BigMatt]

A phased approach makes sense, if only to prove the pearl clutchers' fears unfounded...why we haven't seen it in the original DNR proposal or this bill is kind of beyond me.

Step 1: Reduce minimum rifle caliber to 6mm, while maintaining the 1.800" OAL limit. This instantly allows 300 Blackout, 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel, and a host of other SAAMI and wildcat chamberings, while the short case length limit reduces powder capacity and projectile velocity/range. Institute a 10 round magazine limit for whitetail hunting at this step. There could also be a specific named inclusion of certain chamberings such as 30-30, 35 Rem, etc. at this step.

Step 2: Extend max case length limit to 2.100". This allows for pretty much all standard short action cartridges including 243, 308, etc. as well as the 30-30 Winchester and SAUM/WSM chamberings...but would exclude 7.62x54R for those concerned about the milsurp crowd.

Step 3: Extend max case length limit to 2.550". This allows for most standard bolt face long action cartridges including 270, 280, 30-06.

If the deer hunting world doesn't end after these three steps, the max case length limit could then possibly be lengthened to 2.62" allowing traditional belted magnum rounds including 300WM, while purposefully excluding heavy hitters like 338LM and 50BMG.

I like it.

 

[d80hunter]

I am for the center fire rifle hunting, it would allow more clean kills of deer, and less wounded ones that go off and die later. I wonder how many of the deer population die after a bad shot from a shotgun and have the hunter shoot another one because wounded deer that aren't recovered don't count against your deer tags.

A 12 gauge with saboted slug compared to an AK-47

12 gauge 300 grain SST:
Energy=2664
Taylor KO=42

7.62×39 123 grain V-Max:
Energy=1508
Taylor KO=12

Not to mention the 12 gauge has a bigger bullet diameter.

Not bashing the 7.62×39 round. It is plenty for deer but I am showing you that a shotgun isn't responsible for wounded deer unless the shooter isn't doing their part or being stupid about shot ranges.

 

[Spyco]

I'm not too keen on using a slug shotgun when muzzle loaders are outperforming them with almost double effective the range for hunting. At least, with a potent load in a muzzle loader, the recoil would be worth it over any slug shotgun I have fired. I'd rather have the old 30-30 to hunt with, a round that almost every state allows for deer.

 

[Hookeye]

We already did a phased approach, just locked in step 2 ( first was 1.625 max case length, now 1.8).

You guys have been saying "all or nothing" and critics be damned.

And now you're on board with more "phases".



New phase 1, explicitly call out .30-30 and .3 Rem as OK and open reg to allow for other odd cartridges/wildcats.
That still leaves out somebody wanting to use grandpa's 99 Savage in .308.

You must not like his wanting to keep with tradition, or lack of bank account, since SO MANY would be deer hunters have nice rifles they cant use here, and can't afford anything else.

Also..........how in the flying flip is using HP rifle going to reduce wounding? IMHO extending the range might even add to it. Thank goodness nobody ever wounds a deer with HP rifle in other states, or loses deer. Bad shooting is bad shooting. And usually with distance comes more error.

And the AK pistol............they suck. I've shot 'em. Trigger long of pull, ergonomics..........again, there's a reason pretty much nobody uses them, even if legal.
A 35# recurve with a draw stop and laser sight is legal too..................good luck finding somebody using one.

Face it. Some gun nuts want to use their pet rifles and want the regs opened up. It's not some attempt at helping others so much as helping themselves.
There are things that work well within the current regs. But they just are not the type to be content.

Others look at deer hunting differently, but they are to be condemned to be so self serving.

Deer numbers are down in the areas I hunt/used to hunt.
Opening up HP rifle will probably increase hunter numbers, and the deer take.
More hunters means less land to hunt, and more competition.

The money you save by being able to run grandpa's old .30-06 isn't going to be enough to pay for the lease.

 

[Hookeye]

I'm not too keen on using a slug shotgun when muzzle loaders are outperforming them with almost double effective the range for hunting. At least, with a potent load in a muzzle loader, the recoil would be worth it over any slug shotgun I have fired. I'd rather have the old 30-30 to hunt with, a round that almost every state allows for deer.

Shotguns go bang pretty much every time. 2006 I heard the guy next door "pop" his cap 3 times in the morning. I about fell out of my tree laughing.

BTW, I think a Win 94 in .30-30 to be a crappy rig. Ergonomics, recoil..............just never liked them. And yeah I had one. It was a Canadian Centennial with Lyman #2 tang peep added. It actually shot well.

My Big Bore 94 in .307 was mean, and it shot like crap.

Done with Winchester lever guns.

My lightweight TC carbine in .35 Rem feels way better, before and after the shot.

 

[BigMatt]

Hookeye, we know. Everyone who wants high powered rifle is stupid and you are smart. We get it already....

 

[Streck-Fu]

S
And that .30-06 for squirrel in trees nonsense.................horrible attempt at an argument. Drop it.
Makes one look like a moron for even mentioning it, as if what is legal always makes up for common sense.

Actually, it perfectly illustrates the absurdity of the law.

 

[Expatriated]

Sure does

 

[tyrajam]

Actually, it perfectly illustrates the absurdity of the law.

No, no it doesn't. The law allows it, but it's not a problem because, again, NOBODY DOES IT! The law allows you to drive a semi and trailer to run errands everyday, and if everyone did that it would be a nightmare with traffic. The law allows you to shoot squirrels with a high power rifle, and if everyone did it, there might be a problem. But nobody does. Stop comparing your imaginary scenarios to real life.

 

[avboiler11]

Kind of like imaginary scenarios involving decimated deer herds and irresponsible hunters shooting each other and innocent non-hunters?

 

[oldpink]

No, no it doesn't. The law allows it, but it's not a problem because, again, NOBODY DOES IT! The law allows you to drive a semi and trailer to run errands everyday, and if everyone did that it would be a nightmare with traffic. The law allows you to shoot squirrels with a high power rifle, and if everyone did it, there might be a problem. But nobody does. Stop comparing your imaginary scenarios to real life.

While you're on the subject of absurd comparisons, it's interesting how the anti-HPR crowd is oblivious to how much they sound exactly like the Moms Demand Action group in regard to CCW/LTCH.

 

[tyrajam]

Kind of like imaginary scenarios involving decimated deer herds and irresponsible hunters shooting each other and innocent non-hunters?

Exactly, people shouldn't answer illogical arguments with more illogical arguments.

While you're on the subject of absurd comparisons, it's interesting how the anti-HPR crowd is oblivious to how much they sound exactly like the Moms Demand Action group in regard to CCW/LTCH.

You noticed that too, eh?

 

[Paul30]

A 12 gauge with saboted slug compared to an AK-47

12 gauge 300 grain SST:
Energy=2664
Taylor KO=42

7.62×39 123 grain V-Max:
Energy=1508
Taylor KO=12

Not to mention the 12 gauge has a bigger bullet diameter.

Not bashing the 7.62×39 round. It is plenty for deer but I am showing you that a shotgun isn't responsible for wounded deer unless the shooter isn't doing their part or being stupid about shot ranges.

Much like in personal defense, it's all about shot placement. A rifle with much lighter recoil is much less likely to have the shooter jerk the trigger in anticipation of getting his shoulder mule stomped. Also with a rifle you will likely use good optics. Many people use daddy's old shotgun, some use a smooth bore with a bead on the front. I have heard so many stories from friends and family of "the several that got away but I think I shot him. I tracked him but could not find him."

I have 2 family members who didn't know a shotgun needs a different scope than a rifle, my dad had to try to find his way home with blood leaking into his eyes because the shotgun slammed the scope into his forehead while he was shooting from his deer blind. He was leaning out and not as stable for a shot and the old 12 gauge 3 inch magnum slug slammed that scope right into his forehead. Probably needed stitches, but you know dads.......

 

[Hookeye]

Reg rifle scopes work fine on slug guns, if the eye relief is 3" or better.
Excessive eye relief will be met with lesser FOV.
Nothing is free.

Crappy mounts and or poor gun fit will bash even decent eye relief scopes against skulls.

Have seen horrible setups over the years. Still do.
On slug guns and reg rifles.

No wonder they wound themselves and sometimes the critters.