17 year old kid shot dead by Neighborhood Watch "Captain"

[CarmelHP]

Hey, I've admitted since my first post in this thread that I don't know what happened.

However, saying that uncorroborated self-serving testimony establishes something as "true" is simply not the case. In this case, it likely makes it impossible for the prosecution to come close to meeting its burden, but you and I both know there is a huge difference between what is "true" and what can be "proven".

It's partially corroborated, others say he was on the ground being hit and yelling for help, the same as his statements.

Why do you say ?

How have you established this is the "truth"? I find that choice of words to be really curious since you then admit that it might not be true:

It was a statement about objective truth, not just this case. Just because the truth is beneficial to one side does not make it less true. If Zimmerman is speaking the truth, we don't disregard it just because he's the one saying it. We weigh it against other admissible evidence, and test it on cross-examination.

I've never said that it was a bad shoot; I really don't know if it was. I personally think there is a pretty decent chance it was a bad shoot, but don't see that being proven to anything close to the burden based off what has been released.

I thought it was initially but am less convinced now, the lynch mob gave me a bad enough taste that I looked at it more critically.

What I have taken exception to is those that assert that they absolutely know that it was good and that we somehow have an obligation to jump on this guy's bandwagon because he is "one of ours".

Objectivity in either direction should not be trampled by either embracing or rejecting Zimmerman.

Even without the shooting ever happening, Zimmerman's action prior to it are more than enough to establish that I don't consider him "one of ours". If you want to be a cop, work to become one. Don't be out running around with your gun at night following "suspicious" people who it turns out can kick your ass.

He's no different than private security except they didn't pay him. Apparently the HOA appointed him "watch captain," and encouraged residents to call the police AND him for suspicious activity; and the police encouraged reporting unknown people, especially teenagers. Did he take it a little too seriously? Probably, but that doesn't mean that he is either a murderer or wasn't attacked. I've read stories on INGO from things that members have done that could have ended just as badly, but there for the grace of god go they. I would like to know more from independent sources, but if they don't exist, and this is what we have judge on, I wouldn't convict the guy or even consider him badly. His behavior was no worse than many cops, some get their asses kicked and end up shooting the kicker, and there isn't any evidence he tried to apprehend Martin. If, as has been reported, he was breaking off the observation and heading to his vehicle to await police, he was an innocent at that point. I think it's unfortunate, could have been avoided by both parties, but, in the end, not culpable.

 

[.45 Dave]

I read the transcript of the 911 call. I can see what may have been going on the heads of both people.

In Martin's: Who's that guy and what's he doing. He's watching me, better check it out. Hey wait! This guy might be nuts! I'd better get out of here!

He Runs and Zimmerman follows.

From Zimmerman's side: The kid looks and acts drugged. He's acting suspicious. The kid has his hand in his waist band. Now he's got something in his hand. Could be a gun or some kind of weapon. I'm the neighborhood watch captain. How would it look if I do nothing? Better follow him so the police can nab him.

They somehow run into each other and both thinks the other is up to no good and potentially dangerous. Neither identifies himself or tries to find out what the other wants. Both are working on fear and adrenalin. Fight ensues. Bullets trump fists.

That's how I read the situation. Both over react and one ends up dead. Just my .02 after reading the transcript and looking over the witnesses testimony.

 

[TiminMishawaka]

Apparently a new eyewitness came out who saw it go down and saw Zimmerman go back to his car, after which Martin went after Zimmerman and started the fight. Zimmerman claims that during the fight Martin went after his gun. This is going to muddy it.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Found this on a different site.

http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad71/goaheddoit1234/Floridashootingpic.jpg


http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad71/goaheddoit1234/shooter-shootee.jpg

Those aren't the same people.

 

[cobber]

School Report: Trayvon Martin Found with 'Jewelry and Burglary Tool'



Multiple suspensions paint complicated portrait of Trayvon Martin - Florida - MiamiHerald.com



As more and more comes out on this kid, he looks less and less like the image of Trayvon that Team Obama wants you to have (angel, peewee football player, dedicated high school student), it's simply a complete load of crap. Maybe he was up to no good that night after all. I find it odd that although he supposedly went out to buy some candy and a drink in the early evening, his father didn't notice him missing until the next day.

Too bad the media and family tried to hard to portray him as an angel, since they should have known all this stuff would come out. These facts could be relevant as to the question of who initiated the combat.

We've heard about Zimmerman's 'history', a six-year old uncharged offense. Now it's Trayvon's turn.

After the initial race-baiting, this was also bound to happen.

Remember, he could have been BHO's son.

 

[Tydeeh22]

another week and we will pop the 1k post mark on this. awesome.

 

[cobber]

another week and we will pop the 1k post mark on this. awesome.

This case is going to drag on for months, since it's probably going to result in a federal case and new gun-control legislation.


Even if Zimmerman is exonerated, the Brady Bunch will think this case has 'galvanized' the gun-control movement.

 

[John Galt]

Even if Zimmerman is exonerated, the Brady Bunch will think this case has 'galvanized' the gun-control movement.

When all of the facts come out and those bandwagon jumpers are shown to be the dangerous fools that they are, why don't we use this case to galvanize the common sense movement? I believe this could very well serve as a catalyst for our side as well, if we take off the gloves and quit tolerating this BS!

 

[KLB]

I doubt this will affect things either way for gun laws. It too will fade once some new story comes along.

 

[Pocketman]

Seems it's all boiling down to what happened during the very last minute. Would two rational people, like we have here in INGO, reacted differently in this scenario?

 

[Kutnupe14]

Seems it's all boiling down to what happened during the very last minute. Would two rational people, like we have here in INGO, reacted differently in this scenario?

I would like to think so....

 

[Fargo]

Riiiiight. The night watchman should be arrested and charged with murder in your opinion based on inconclusive evidence, but the Black Panthers are handing out fliers with a $10K reward for him dead or alive and you need more evidence to warrant prosecution. I think you have just eliminated all credibility to anything you have posted here.

Go ahead and please quote where I EVER said that Z should be arrested or charged with anything. You can't, because I NEVER said it.

Oh, and MEA CULPA for actually wanting to see what all is on the poster before I opine on whether a legal standard has been met..

Yeah, it is my credibility rather than your reading comprehension that is at question here...

Joe

 

[williamsburg]

a story from the indystar today about 'stand your ground' laws. but it still lacks alot of information.

Indiana has its own version of Florida's 'stand your ground' law | Indianapolis Star | indystar.com-

 

[CarmelHP]

a [STRIKE]story[/STRIKE] hit piece from the indystar today about 'stand your ground' laws. but it [STRIKE]still lacks alot of[/STRIKE] is full of mis-information.

Indiana has its own version of Florida's 'stand your ground' law | Indianapolis Star | indystar.com-

FIFY

 

[Johnny C]

Nope.

Everyone is "profiled." All the time. The type of clothes you wear, your haircut, your shoes, your skin, your accent, the car you drive.

Very true.
When I was younger, my car died along an empty stretch of 37.
So I got out and started walking up the road thumbing for a ride.
Everyone passed me by, lots of them looking at me, but no one stopping.
So I started thinking, here I am with a leather jacket and sunglasses and a bandana tied around my spiked mullett probally looking scary to folks.
I walk back to my car, take off the bandana, glasses and leather jacket and pop on a baseball cap... withing a few minutes, 3 people stopped to help me.

I was sure being profiled

 

[.45 Dave]

Seems it's all boiling down to what happened during the very last minute. Would two rational people, like we have here in INGO, reacted differently in this scenario?

Sorry, I know you meant this as a serious question, but after seeing some the back and forth on some of these threads I am grateful that some of these people are separated by computer screens or we would have bodies everywhere!

 

[KLB]

Of course we all profile, it is a survival mechanism.

 

[beararms1776]

The fact that the kid was unarmed is disturbing.

 

[Pocketman]

Seems it's all boiling down to what happened during the very last minute. Would two rational people, like we have here in INGO, reacted differently in this scenario?

Sorry, I know you meant this as a serious question, but after seeing some the back and forth on some of these threads I am grateful that some of these people are separated by computer screens or we would have bodies everywhere!

Maybe I did, or maybe I didn't?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

As part of a national push to strengthen self-defense laws, Indiana tweaked its law in 2006, a year after Florida enacted its version.

Ummm, yeah, the Indiana Supreme Court did this in 1865 when it eliminated the duty to retreat. Prior to 2006 Indiana juries were NOT instructed that there was any duty to retreat.

Again, Florida was in the minority of duty to retreat states when it reformed its statutes in 2005. It received media attention because of the number of electoral votes it has. After 2005 the NRA ran around acting as if duty to retreat were a supermajority and Indiana recodified an existing rule. Even if you repealed Indiana's recodification of the Indiana Supreme Court ruling, the Supreme Court ruling abolishing the duty to retreat would still control.

The fact that the kid was unarmed is disturbing

Ask the cops here if they can shoot someone going for the cop's gun.

Ask the cops here if they have ever seen a person beaten to serious bodily injury or death with one's hands.