Joe, c'mon, direct admissible testimony versus unsupported speculation? Just because the truth is beneficial to the defendant does not make it "self-serving." If there is any quality evidence, direct or circumstantial, that shows Zimmerman either threatened, laid a finger on, or otherwise attacked Martin, I'd lead the cheer for the prosecution, but they've got absolutely nothing (so far) that contradicts Zimmerman's version of events, and he has partial corroborating testimony. (Strong caveat here: that we know of, there may be other unreleased or as yet undiscovered evidence blowing up Zimmerman's story). I'd like to hear testimony from a disinterested third party on how the final altercation came about, but it just might not be out there.
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17 year old kid shot dead by Neighborhood Watch "Captain"
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Joe, c'mon, direct admissible testimony versus unsupported speculation? Just because the truth is beneficial to the defendant does not make it "self-serving." If there is any quality evidence, direct or circumstantial, that shows Zimmerman either threatened, laid a finger on, or otherwise attacked Martin, I'd lead the cheer for the prosecution, but they've got absolutely nothing (so far) that contradicts Zimmerman's version of events, and he has partial corroborating testimony. (Strong caveat here: that we know of, there may be other unreleased or as yet undiscovered evidence blowing up Zimmerman's story). I'd like to hear testimony from a disinterested third party on how the final altercation came about, but it just might not be out there.
SaintsNSinners
Shooter
I support zimmerman...
from all I have read and put together I think it was self defense. Trayvon was a gang sign flashing gold grilled, suspended from school die hard wannabe gang bangind drug dealer.
from all I have read and put together I think it was self defense. Trayvon was a gang sign flashing gold grilled, suspended from school die hard wannabe gang bangind drug dealer.
Corvette Forum - View Single Post - Martin Started The Fight, Police Knew This Already
Edited to add: I just found this on CNN, probably what the reference was to:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/26/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html
updated 10:04 PM EDT, Mon March 26, 2012
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Nothing will bring Martin back. Nothing will change how this has effected Zimmerman and how it will change his life forever. Sanford PD, and perhaps law enforcement in general, will be scared. All this discussion is somewhat academic at best. This is no longer about self defense or who initiated the altercation. This incident is going to have repercussions that none of us really want. Millions of people have a lesser opinion of gun owners. Millions will blame white Zimmerman for killing an unarmed black youth. No one will ever know the whole truth. No one will win anything over this.
I don't know about that. The anti's will always have a bad opinion of gun owners. But if things get out of hand with the New Black Panther Party and the other race-mongers over this, some people who have never owned a firearm before may now become firearm owners themselves when they start worry about their own safety more.
School Report: Trayvon Martin Found with 'Jewelry and Burglary Tool'
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html
As more and more comes out on this kid, he looks less and less like the image of Trayvon that Team Obama wants you to have (angel, peewee football player, dedicated high school student), it's simply a complete load of crap. Maybe he was up to no good that night after all. I find it odd that although he supposedly went out to buy some candy and a drink in the early evening, his father didn't notice him missing until the next day.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html
As more and more comes out on this kid, he looks less and less like the image of Trayvon that Team Obama wants you to have (angel, peewee football player, dedicated high school student), it's simply a complete load of crap. Maybe he was up to no good that night after all. I find it odd that although he supposedly went out to buy some candy and a drink in the early evening, his father didn't notice him missing until the next day.
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I would imagine it a case of being caught unaware. How was this case any different from all the other shootings through out the US? I'm not trying to be insensitive, but really people get shot all the time. Including one racial person shooting another. (Not at all convinced race factored, but just saying.) This really was no different until some "blew it up." The police usually don't release the details. Or very little while investigating. I imagine there's a number or reasons for that, but I don't see why initially this would be any different.
Anybody see the article written by Massad Ayoob?
Where he talks about the condition of the gun when taken into custody?
He states that the magazine was full and the chamber was empty.
The gun didn't cycle properly to bring the next bullet into the chamber.
Was it because it simply jammed? Or was it because Martin may have had his hand wrapped around the barrel trying wrestle the gun away from Zimmerman?
I suppose it's all academic, It still comes back to who was rightfully defending themselves?
Where he talks about the condition of the gun when taken into custody?
He states that the magazine was full and the chamber was empty.
The gun didn't cycle properly to bring the next bullet into the chamber.
Was it because it simply jammed? Or was it because Martin may have had his hand wrapped around the barrel trying wrestle the gun away from Zimmerman?
I suppose it's all academic, It still comes back to who was rightfully defending themselves?
Zimmerman:
We’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood and there’s a real suspicious guy. It’s Retreat View Circle. The best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle.
This guy looks like he’s up to no good or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around looking about. [00:25]
911 dispatcher:
OK, is he White, Black, or Hispanic?
Zimmerman:
He looks black.
911 dispatcher:
Did you see what he was wearing?
Zimmerman:
Yeah, a dark hoodie like a gray hoodie. He wore jeans or sweat pants and white tennis shoes. He’s here now … he’s just staring. [00:42]
911 dispatcher:
He’s just walking around the area, the houses? OK.
Zimmerman:
Now he’s staring at me. [00:48]
911 dispatcher:
OK, you said that’s 1111 Retreat View or 111?
Zimmerman:
That’s the clubhouse.
911 dispatcher:
He’s near the clubhouse now?
Zimmerman:
Yeah, now he’s coming toward me. He’s got his hands in his waist band.
And he’s a black male.[1:03]
911 dispatcher:
How old would you say he is?
Zimmerman:
He’s got something on his shirt. About like his late teens.
911 dispatcher:
Late teens?
Zimmerman:
Uh, huh.
Something’s wrong with him. Yep, he’s coming to check me out.
He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is. [01:20]
911 dispatcher:
Let me know if he does anything, OK?
Zimmerman:
OK.
911 dispatcher:
We’ve got him on the wire. Just let me know if this guy does anything else.
Zimmerman:
OK.
These *******s. They always get away.
When you come to the clubhouse, you come straight in and you go left. Actually, you would go past the clubhouse. [1:39]
911 dispatcher:
OK, so it’s on the left hand side of the clubhouse?
Zimmerman:
Yeah. You go in straight through the entrance and then you would go left. You go straight in, don’t turn and make a left.
He’s running. [2:08]
911 dispatcher:
He’s running? Which way is he running?
Zimmerman:
Down toward the other entrance of the neighborhood. [2:14]
911 dispatcher:
OK, which entrance is that he’s headed towards?
Zimmerman:
The back entrance.
911 dispatcher:
Are you following him? [2:24]
Zimmerman:
Yeah. [2:25]
911 dispatcher:
OK.
We don’t need you to do that. [2:26]
Zimmerman:
OK. [2:28]
911 dispatcher:
Alright, sir, what is your name? [2:34]
Zimmerman:
George. He ran.
911 dispatcher:
Alright, George, what’s your last name?
Zimmerman:
Zimmerman.
911 dispatcher:
What’s the phone number you’re calling from?
Zimmerman:
407-435-2400
911 dispatcher:
Alright, George, we do have them on the way. Do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?
Zimmerman:
Yeah.
911 dispatcher:
Alright, where are you going to meet with them at?
Zimmerman:
Um, if they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the clubhouse and, uh, straight past the clubhouse and make a left and then go past the mailboxes you’ll see my truck. [3:10]
911 dispatcher:
Alright, what address are you parked in front of? [3:21]
Zimmerman:
Um, I don’t know. It’s a cut-through so I don’t know the address. [3:25]
911 dispatcher:
OK, do you live in the area?
Zimmerman:
Yeah, yeah, I live here.
911 dispatcher:
OK, what’s your apartment number?
Zimmerman:
It’s a home. It’s 1950 – oh, crap, I don’t want to give it out – I don’t know where this kid is [inaudible] [3:40]
911 dispatcher:
OK, do you just want to meet with them at the mailboxes then? [3:42]
Zimmerman:
Yeah, that’s fine. [3:43]
911 dispatcher:
Alright, George, I’ll let them know you’ll meet them at …
Zimmerman:
Could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at? [3:49]
911 dispatcher:
OK, that’s no problem.
Zimmerman:
My number … you’ve got it?
911 dispatcher:
Yeah, I’ve got it. 435-2400?
Zimmerman:
Yeah, you got it.
911 dispatcher:
OK, no problem. I’ll let them know to call you when they’re in the area. [4:02]
Zimmerman:
Thanks.
911 dispatcher:
You’re welcome.
Call ends 4:07
Above was a transcription of Zimmerman’s call to 911 moments before he shot and killed Trayvon Martin. It was transcribed to the best of the transcriber’s abilities, and is not meant to replace any official transcript of the call.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aVwPqXc-bk[/ame]
That's an edited recording, but at the end, where he says, "Actually, could you have them call me and I'll tell them where I'm at?" does that sound like a 5'9", 250-lb man who has just been running?
There are plenty of unedited clips of that 911 call available online. Tell me where it sounds like a fat, short guy chasing something.
It doesn't. There is ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE that Zimmerman was chasing Trayvon when Trayvon attacked him. There is PLENTY of evidence against it.
Consider this:
Zimmerman says Trayvon was running toward the back gate (circled in black). His truck was parked past the mailboxes near the clubhouse (circled in yellow). The assault and shooting occurred somewhere around the red-circled area, based on numerous witnesses saying it happened behind their houses, and Mary Cutcher's address of 2831 Retreat View Circle.
Now, if Zimmerman were chasing Trayvon for at least a minute, why did the altercation happen so near to Zimmerman' truck? Why didn't it happen further south, the direction Zimmerman said Trayvon was running?
Why? Because Trayvon came back while Zimmerman was returning to his truck. It appears Zimmerman stopped after the dispatcher said he didn't need to go after him.
We’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood and there’s a real suspicious guy. It’s Retreat View Circle. The best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle.
This guy looks like he’s up to no good or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around looking about. [00:25]
911 dispatcher:
OK, is he White, Black, or Hispanic?
Zimmerman:
He looks black.
911 dispatcher:
Did you see what he was wearing?
Zimmerman:
Yeah, a dark hoodie like a gray hoodie. He wore jeans or sweat pants and white tennis shoes. He’s here now … he’s just staring. [00:42]
911 dispatcher:
He’s just walking around the area, the houses? OK.
Zimmerman:
Now he’s staring at me. [00:48]
911 dispatcher:
OK, you said that’s 1111 Retreat View or 111?
Zimmerman:
That’s the clubhouse.
911 dispatcher:
He’s near the clubhouse now?
Zimmerman:
Yeah, now he’s coming toward me. He’s got his hands in his waist band.
And he’s a black male.[1:03]
911 dispatcher:
How old would you say he is?
Zimmerman:
He’s got something on his shirt. About like his late teens.
911 dispatcher:
Late teens?
Zimmerman:
Uh, huh.
Something’s wrong with him. Yep, he’s coming to check me out.
He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is. [01:20]
911 dispatcher:
Let me know if he does anything, OK?
Zimmerman:
OK.
911 dispatcher:
We’ve got him on the wire. Just let me know if this guy does anything else.
Zimmerman:
OK.
These *******s. They always get away.
When you come to the clubhouse, you come straight in and you go left. Actually, you would go past the clubhouse. [1:39]
911 dispatcher:
OK, so it’s on the left hand side of the clubhouse?
Zimmerman:
Yeah. You go in straight through the entrance and then you would go left. You go straight in, don’t turn and make a left.
He’s running. [2:08]
911 dispatcher:
He’s running? Which way is he running?
Zimmerman:
Down toward the other entrance of the neighborhood. [2:14]
911 dispatcher:
OK, which entrance is that he’s headed towards?
Zimmerman:
The back entrance.
911 dispatcher:
Are you following him? [2:24]
Zimmerman:
Yeah. [2:25]
911 dispatcher:
OK.
We don’t need you to do that. [2:26]
Zimmerman:
OK. [2:28]
911 dispatcher:
Alright, sir, what is your name? [2:34]
Zimmerman:
George. He ran.
911 dispatcher:
Alright, George, what’s your last name?
Zimmerman:
Zimmerman.
911 dispatcher:
What’s the phone number you’re calling from?
Zimmerman:
407-435-2400
911 dispatcher:
Alright, George, we do have them on the way. Do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?
Zimmerman:
Yeah.
911 dispatcher:
Alright, where are you going to meet with them at?
Zimmerman:
Um, if they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the clubhouse and, uh, straight past the clubhouse and make a left and then go past the mailboxes you’ll see my truck. [3:10]
911 dispatcher:
Alright, what address are you parked in front of? [3:21]
Zimmerman:
Um, I don’t know. It’s a cut-through so I don’t know the address. [3:25]
911 dispatcher:
OK, do you live in the area?
Zimmerman:
Yeah, yeah, I live here.
911 dispatcher:
OK, what’s your apartment number?
Zimmerman:
It’s a home. It’s 1950 – oh, crap, I don’t want to give it out – I don’t know where this kid is [inaudible] [3:40]
911 dispatcher:
OK, do you just want to meet with them at the mailboxes then? [3:42]
Zimmerman:
Yeah, that’s fine. [3:43]
911 dispatcher:
Alright, George, I’ll let them know you’ll meet them at …
Zimmerman:
Could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at? [3:49]
911 dispatcher:
OK, that’s no problem.
Zimmerman:
My number … you’ve got it?
911 dispatcher:
Yeah, I’ve got it. 435-2400?
Zimmerman:
Yeah, you got it.
911 dispatcher:
OK, no problem. I’ll let them know to call you when they’re in the area. [4:02]
Zimmerman:
Thanks.
911 dispatcher:
You’re welcome.
Call ends 4:07
Above was a transcription of Zimmerman’s call to 911 moments before he shot and killed Trayvon Martin. It was transcribed to the best of the transcriber’s abilities, and is not meant to replace any official transcript of the call.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aVwPqXc-bk[/ame]
That's an edited recording, but at the end, where he says, "Actually, could you have them call me and I'll tell them where I'm at?" does that sound like a 5'9", 250-lb man who has just been running?
There are plenty of unedited clips of that 911 call available online. Tell me where it sounds like a fat, short guy chasing something.
It doesn't. There is ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE that Zimmerman was chasing Trayvon when Trayvon attacked him. There is PLENTY of evidence against it.
Consider this:
Zimmerman says Trayvon was running toward the back gate (circled in black). His truck was parked past the mailboxes near the clubhouse (circled in yellow). The assault and shooting occurred somewhere around the red-circled area, based on numerous witnesses saying it happened behind their houses, and Mary Cutcher's address of 2831 Retreat View Circle.
Now, if Zimmerman were chasing Trayvon for at least a minute, why did the altercation happen so near to Zimmerman' truck? Why didn't it happen further south, the direction Zimmerman said Trayvon was running?
Why? Because Trayvon came back while Zimmerman was returning to his truck. It appears Zimmerman stopped after the dispatcher said he didn't need to go after him.
In a related story:
New Black Panther Party leader arrested in DeKalb Co. - CBS Atlanta 46
DEKALB COUNTY, GA (CBS ATLANTA) -
The DeKalb Sheriff's Office Fugitive Squad Members arrested the New Black Panther Party's Chief of Staff, Hashim Nzinga, for possession of a firearm by a convicted felon.
Nzinga, 49, recently announced that the New Black Panther Party is placing a $10,000 reward for the capture of George Zimmerman, the shooter of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.
The DeKalb County Sheriff's Office said Nzinga was in possession of an FN Herstal 5.7x28 handgun. An investigation revealed that he pawned the gun at a Stone Mountain Pawn Shop on Rockbridge Road. According to the DeKalb County Sheriff's Office, Nzinga's convictions of felony deposit account fraud in Gwinnett County in February 2012 made this transaction illegal.
Nzinga was arrested at his probation office on West Oak Street in Lawrenceville on Monday. He was booked into the DeKalb County Jail. Bond information for Nzinga was not available.
New Black Panther Party leader arrested in DeKalb Co. - CBS Atlanta 46
DEKALB COUNTY, GA (CBS ATLANTA) -
The DeKalb Sheriff's Office Fugitive Squad Members arrested the New Black Panther Party's Chief of Staff, Hashim Nzinga, for possession of a firearm by a convicted felon.
Nzinga, 49, recently announced that the New Black Panther Party is placing a $10,000 reward for the capture of George Zimmerman, the shooter of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.
The DeKalb County Sheriff's Office said Nzinga was in possession of an FN Herstal 5.7x28 handgun. An investigation revealed that he pawned the gun at a Stone Mountain Pawn Shop on Rockbridge Road. According to the DeKalb County Sheriff's Office, Nzinga's convictions of felony deposit account fraud in Gwinnett County in February 2012 made this transaction illegal.
Nzinga was arrested at his probation office on West Oak Street in Lawrenceville on Monday. He was booked into the DeKalb County Jail. Bond information for Nzinga was not available.
Hey, I've admitted since my first post in this thread that I don't know what happened.
However, saying that uncorroborated self-serving testimony establishes something as "true" is simply not the case. In this case, it likely makes it impossible for the prosecution to come close to meeting its burden, but you and I both know there is a huge difference between what is "true" and what can be "proven".
Why do you say
?
How have you established this is the "truth"? I find that choice of words to be really curious since you then admit that it might not be true:
I've never said that it was a bad shoot; I really don't know if it was. I personally think there is a pretty decent chance it was a bad shoot, if only because there is corroborated, undisputed, unequivocal evidence that Zimmerman began by pursuing Martin and so seeking out a confrontation. That makes him the "aggressive" one at the outset and I am yet to hear anything but his own testimony that he at any point prior to getting his ass kicked ceased such conduct.
That said, I don't see that being proven to anything close to the burden based off what has been released. At the end of the day, none of us really knows.
What I have taken exception to is those that assert that they absolutely know that it was a good shoot and that we somehow have an obligation to jump on this guy's bandwagon because he is "one of ours".
Even without the shooting ever happening, Zimmerman's best-case actions prior to it are more than enough to establish that I don't consider him "one of ours". If you want to be a cop, work to become one. Don't be out running around with your gun at night following "suspicious" people who it turns out can kick your ass.
Worst case, he could be guilty of manslaughter.
Bottom line, I don't know.
Best,
Joe
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I hate seeing this on the national news. The pd declared it a self defense shooting. The feds should keep their noses out of it.
There has to be more than the media is spinning it as . OMG hate crime!??
Give me a break. Innocent until proven guilty. Too bad this guys name is being smeared across the country. The guy was the neighborhood watch leader. It was his "duty" to call the cops that mnay times. If he did retreat and the kid attacked, then so be it. A sad story, but the guy reacted. The thing I don't understand is what warranted the use of the firearm? Did the kid have something we don't know?
Thank God for innocence until proven guilty. Thank the media for leaving him hanging high and dry.
There has to be more than the media is spinning it as . OMG hate crime!??
Give me a break. Innocent until proven guilty. Too bad this guys name is being smeared across the country. The guy was the neighborhood watch leader. It was his "duty" to call the cops that mnay times. If he did retreat and the kid attacked, then so be it. A sad story, but the guy reacted. The thing I don't understand is what warranted the use of the firearm? Did the kid have something we don't know?
Thank God for innocence until proven guilty. Thank the media for leaving him hanging high and dry.
Riiiiight. The night watchman should be arrested and charged with murder in your opinion based on inconclusive evidence, but the Black Panthers are handing out fliers with a $10K reward for him dead or alive and you need more evidence to warrant prosecution. I think you have just eliminated all credibility to anything you have posted here.
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