17 year old kid shot dead by Neighborhood Watch "Captain"

[CarmelHP]

Again, Zimmerman had zero interest in Martin's presumption of innocence. Now the tables are turned, Zimmerman believes he's entitled to the presumption of innocence?

You mean Zimmerman didn't presume Martin was innocent while Martin was trying to beat his face in? I guess your right about that.

 

[hornadylnl]

Sure he has a right. So do Rosie O'Donnell and Alan Alda.

It's different when the President voices his opinion, bully pulpit and all.

For the bully pulpit to matter, wouldn't you have to grant him credence to what he's saying? I sure don't. His opinion on this matter means no more to me than anyone elses. But I have no interest in silencing him on this issue either.

 

[hornadylnl]

You mean Zimmerman didn't presume Martin was innocent while Martin was trying to beat his face in? I guess your right about that.

So the whole interaction was initiated by Zimmerman stopping to ask Martin if he'd like a ride home instead of having to walk? He called 911 to tell them of his good deed of wanting to offer Martin a ride?

 

[J_Wales]

Bully pulpit?

When fearless leader speaks it's the bullsh*t pulpit.

 

[Pocketman]

Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman both deserve a thorough, unbiased investigation. There is a lot of speculation on this thread, and much of the rest of the country. Virtually all of the opinions are being formed based upon reports from a media, that many here feel is unreliable, especially when something's reported contrary to what one wants to hear. It will take a lot to convince me that the Martin kid deserved to die over this. Flip side, I wasn't there, so if the investigation reveals that Zimmerman was in fact justified, then so be it. Still a tragedy, regardless of the outcome.

While much of this thread is based upon something that occurred in Florida, there's something else we should all consider. Carrying a firearm involves a tremendous responsibility, LEO or civilian. Every time we walk out the door armed, we need to think about who, what and why we'll use deadly force. This whole situation presents gun owners in a bad light. Given what's known, there was no actual crime being committed or having been committed. Zimmerman himself stated the kid was suspicious looking. How many of us would have conducted ourselves the way Zimmerman did?

 

[cobber]

Again, Zimmerman had zero interest in Martin's presumption of innocence. Now the tables are turned, Zimmerman believes he's entitled to the presumption of innocence?

What Zimmerman may have or not have thought or done, Obama's comment is gratuitous, attempting to connect himself to Trayvon Williams.

Waving the bloody shirt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That is an affront to the real loss suffered by the Williams family. Obama's son could just have easily been Zimmerman.

 

[J_Wales]

What Zimmerman may have or not have thought or done, Obama's comment is gratuitous, attempting to connect himself to Trayvon Williams.

Waving the bloody shirt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That is an affront to the real loss suffered by the Williams family. Obama's son could just have easily been Zimmerman.

fearless leader is a jackass.... I would expect nothing less of the son of a *****.

 

[hornadylnl]

Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman both deserve a thorough, unbiased investigation. There is a lot of speculation on this thread, and much of the rest of the country. Virtually all of the opinions are being formed based upon reports from a media, that many here feel is unreliable, especially when something's reported contrary to what one wants to hear. It will take a lot to convince me that the Martin kid deserved to die over this. Flip side, I wasn't there, so if the investigation reveals that Zimmerman was in fact justified, then so be it. Still a tragedy, regardless of the outcome.

While much of this thread is based upon something that occurred in Florida, there's something else we should all consider. Carrying a firearm involves a tremendous responsibility, LEO or civilian. Every time we walk out the door armed, we need to think about who, what and why we'll use deadly force. This whole situation presents gun owners in a bad light. Given what's known, there was no actual crime being committed or having been committed. Zimmerman himself stated the kid was suspicious looking. How many of us would have conducted ourselves the way Zimmerman did?

I've seen many conversations on here that go something like this.

"I would never go to ***** without my carry gun".

"If you wouldn't go to ***** without a gun, then you shouldn't go there with a gun".

IE, don't do things you wouldn't ordinarily do because you now have a gun to get you out of a bad situation.

One of the things I heard on the radio today was that Zimmerman has made 46 or 47 calls to 911. If it is true that Zimmerman has had complaints from other residents in that neighborhood for his overzealous neighborhood watching, then it seems to be pretty logical that he's out looking for trouble.

I don't know what went down for sure. But from the bits and pieces that have come out about Zimmerman's personality, I'm more inclined to believe that no crime would have been committed that night had Zimmerman never approached him.

 

[cexshun]

One of the things I heard on the radio today was that Zimmerman has made 46 or 47 calls to 911.

Wait, so he made 10% of the 911 calls. Doing the math, that means the neighborhood had at least 460 911 calls.

Was this in Florida or Bosnia?

 

[hornadylnl]

Wait, so he made 10% of the 911 calls. Doing the math, that means the neighborhood had at least 460 911 calls.

Was this in Florida or Bosnia?

That's the 2 different statistics thrown out there. We all know statitistics don't lie.

I was in Bosnia in 97. I'd much rather have been there than New York City at night. Back to our regularly scheduled thread.

BTW, the 46 call figure came from Hannity.

 

[CarmelHP]

Here, I'll try to make this more clear. A man of whatever ethnic background profiles a kid minding his own business. THAT is factual based on Zimmerman's own words. He describes Martin as "suspicious (how),"

On that 911 recording you consider so damning he says its because he's "just walking around looking about...just staring at houses." That sounds like better articulation of reasonable suspicion than provided by most cops.

and being "messed on something (what?)".

He says because of the way he's acting while walking toward him.

He describes him as having his "hand in his waistband (which is coded language for he may be carrying a gun)".

Unless, of course, he had his hand in his waistband.

He states that he is following this "suspicious" person; of which apparently walking through a place you have a legal right to be qualifies.

And Zimmerman knew this how? What is culpable at this point? So, if you stop someone and ask what they're doing, when they have a legal right to be there, you deserve to be beaten and have your life ruined? Officer, you've never, in your career, stopped someone who turned out to be innocent?

He is told to stay in his vehicle. He does not.

We know that how?

911: Are you following him?
Z: Yeah.
911: We don't need you to do that?
Z: OK.

What indication is there of Zimmerman continuing to follow?

Martin runs, and eventually he is caught up with by Zimmerman.

You know this how? The girlfriend says Martin said he would not run.

After that, who knows what happens but, Martin, a kid that had not done a single thing wrong to warrant Zimmerman's attention ends up DEAD.

So, he appears to be casing houses according to Zimmerman's 911 call, but that's not doing "a single thing wrong to warrant Zimmerman's attention?" So tell us officer, have you never stopped anyone, ever, who appeared to be acting suspiciously, but had an innocent explanation when asked?

The sun is never going to rise on his face again, because somebody had an overinflated ego.

Unfortunately, that someone may have been Martin. If he attacked Zimmerman because he felt offended by the attention, thereby escalating the contact, then he was at fault.

For that alone, I could care not if Zimmerman's life is ruined. It's just deserts for being stupid. I imagine that kid would rather have his life "ruined" than be in the ground.

If an otherwise innocent 6'2" 17 year old turns and attacks you rather than answering your questions, officer, can he expect consequences, or that you'll just take it?

Legally, Zimmerman may have been 100% justified, but he was the catalyst that resulted in Martin being dead. No Zimmerman, and Martin is still alive.

Therefore, ipso facto, neighborhoods shouldn't have neighborhood watches, ...or guns.
Too dangerous.

I'm not calling for his arrest and conviction. I'm calling him out for being stupid, and someone dying because of it.

Do you guys think that just because the facts allow someone to remain innocent, the circumstances involved shouldn't be considered in how they are perceived by society henceforth?

No, nor do I think that someone should be ruined because they misjudged a situation. Don't we get lectured all the time that police, despite all their training and the trust and power we give them, should be forgiven mistakes when acting in good faith? Why is the standard less for some poor schmoe just because he wasn't wearing a blue suit?

 

[KG1]

For the bully pulpit to matter, wouldn't you have to grant him credence to what he's saying? I sure don't. His opinion on this matter means no more to me than anyone elses. But I have no interest in silencing him on this issue either.

You might not grant him credence but there are plenty of other people that do and you can't just deny that comments he makes don't have an influence.

 

[CarmelHP]

So the whole interaction was initiated by Zimmerman stopping to ask Martin if he'd like a ride home instead of having to walk? He called 911 to tell them of his good deed of wanting to offer Martin a ride?

Are you telling me that if someone asks you "what are you doing" that you are then justified in beating the crap out of them?

 

[CarmelHP]

Whack a true American hero with a night stick? Are you mad?

Lawns are taken rather seriously here.

 

[hornadylnl]

Are you telling me that if someone asks you "what are you doing" that you are then justified in beating the crap out of them?

So a guy is talking to a dispatcher like this:

Zimmerman says, "He's checking me out," and then, "This guy looks like he's on drugs, he's definitely messed up." "There's a real suspicious guy. This guy looks like he's up to no good, on drugs or something," Zimmerman can be heard telling the dispatcher.
"These a**holes always get away,"

And then simply asks Martin "what are you doing"? I suppose he invited Martin over for Tea and Crumpets and Martin started wailing on him.



Again, I want to hear the forensics evidence. Did the police really give the forensics a very thorough and unbiased investigation or did they go into the investigation believing it was self defense and leave a lot of stones unturned?

ETA: Will we get to hear the toxicology report? Seems Zimmerman is positive the kid was on drugs. If his toxicology comes up squeaky clean, wouldn't that call Zimmerman's judgement into question?

 

[Kutnupe14]

I wonder if OJ Simpson was extended the same l
critique when he was accused of his crime. If he had been there, I wonder if he was defending himself from an overactive ex-wife, and a ninja waiter.

And even after being found innocent, apparently he was railroaded, and his life ruined. Where was so passionate an argument concerning THAT case? And don't give me "it happened a long time ago" nonsense. I have seen numerous references to "OJ" since I've been here.

Ohhhhh wait, I get it...

 

[KG1]

I wonder if OJ Simpson was extended the same l
critique when he was accused of his crime. If he had been there, I wonder if he was defending himself from an overactive ex-wife, and a ninja waiter.

And even after being found innocent, apparently he was railroaded, and his life ruined. Where was so passionate an argument concerning THAT case? And don't give me "it happened a long time ago" nonsense. I have seen numerous references to "OJ" since I've been here.

Ohhhhh wait, I get it...

I don't get the comparison.

 

[MangoTango]

"Amid angry charges that race played a central role in the tragedy, Obama said "all of us have to do some soul searching to figure out how does something like this happen—and that means that we examine the laws and the context for what happened as well as the specifics of the incident.""

Uh, oh here it comes with more gun laws. The real reason this is being tried in the media and voraciously supported by liberals.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I don't get the comparison.

Exactly my point... ***sigh***

 

[KG1]

Exactly my point... ***sigh***

Can you please point out to me how the facts of what happened in the OJ case compare to what happened in the case that is under discussion in this thread?

While were at it why do you feel the need to break it down to the racial level when you feel that someone disagrees with your position? (btw..i'm not as dense as you would like to portray me as. I did catch the inference you made at the end of your previous post that I was referring to)