17 year old kid shot dead by Neighborhood Watch "Captain"

[hornadylnl]

Dude, I don't see how you get there from here.

Is it the duty of Zimmerman as the neighborhood watch captain to stop any people he doesn't recognize in a private gated community? Not being recognized as a resident of the community and being in the community is suspicious, is it not? Did Trayvon have a right to be there as a guest of his father who lived in the community? Does a resident have a duty to let others in the community know who their guests are? If not, how does one eliminate the confusion of an unrecognized person in the community when spotted by the neighborhood watch captain?

 

[CarmelHP]

Is it the duty of Zimmerman as the neighborhood watch captain to stop any people he doesn't recognize in a private gated community? Not being recognized as a resident of the community and being in the community is suspicious, is it not? Did Trayvon have a right to be there as a guest of his father who lived in the community? Does a resident have a duty to let others in the community know who their guests are? If not, how does one eliminate the confusion of an unrecognized person in the community when spotted by the neighborhood watch captain?

Is there ever any nuance? Is everything really white or black in your world?

 

[Bond 281]

Is it the duty of Zimmerman as the neighborhood watch captain to stop any people he doesn't recognize in a private gated community? Not being recognized as a resident of the community and being in the community is suspicious, is it not? Did Trayvon have a right to be there as a guest of his father who lived in the community? Does a resident have a duty to let others in the community know who their guests are? If not, how does one eliminate the confusion of an unrecognized person in the community when spotted by the neighborhood watch captain?

I thought it was his father's girlfriend who lived there? The issue is you're taking parts of a whole.

Me: Martin was doing A,B,C,D,E,F,G things that together look extremely suspicious.

You: Snarky comment about how is C suspicious, Nazis, blah blah blah

It wasn't just that he was unrecognized. It wasn't just that he was a young black man. It wasn't just that he was acting erratically. It wasn't just that he was walking in between houses. It wasn't just that it was getting dark and rainy. It wasn't just that he was looking around. It wasn't just that there had been a lot of break-ins. It was that there were all of these elements.

You can't keep picking out single elements of a whole and use that as your argument against Zimmerman.

 

[Kutnupe14]

No I speak as though there isn't evidence to conclude anything else.

Someone called the cops on this kid. Of course LEO will question him.

As for open carriers, it's not the same thing. If I'm a NWC in a gated community and I see someone I dont recognize as living there, and he's acting "suspiciously", I'd prolly call the cops. If he's acting suspiciously while armed, I might even dial faster. If he's just walking down the sidwalk while armed, I may think nothing of it.

Yep, I would have rolled up on the kid, told him that someone thought he was suspicious, and ask where he was going. He can easily tell me to pound sand, but odds are, he will probably tell me that he just came from the store, and is going back to his father's home.

10-8, no report... now, let's go find the guy who called in that kid as suspicious, and see exactly why they believed so.

 

[jamil]

Is it the duty of Zimmerman as the neighborhood watch captain to stop any people he doesn't recognize in a private gated community? Not being recognized as a resident of the community and being in the community is suspicious, is it not? Did Trayvon have a right to be there as a guest of his father who lived in the community? Does a resident have a duty to let others in the community know who their guests are? If not, how does one eliminate the confusion of an unrecognized person in the community when spotted by the neighborhood watch captain?

There's still no clear path from here to there.

Not recognizing someone isn't all that suspicious in itself. Are you saying that not being recognized when coupled with other factors is still irrelevant?

I don't know if all the nits you're picking is to up your post count like others have sugested, I am trying to find some sense of reasoning. But if that's your reason, I not really interested in posting for the sake of posting.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Me: Martin was doing A,B,C,D,E,F,G things that together look extremely suspicious.

(IE: a member of a demographic that commits the most crimes, in my neighborhood, wearing a hoodie, looking at house, walking around, a**hole, hand in his waistband.)

 

[Bond 281]

Yep, I would have rolled up on the kid, told him that someone thought he was suspicious, and ask where he was going. He can easily tell me to pound sand, but odds are, he will probably tell me that he just came from the store, and is going back to his father's home.

10-8, no report... now, let's go find the guy who called in that kid as suspicious, and see exactly why they believed so.

And that's a reasonable police action I think.

 

[jamil]

Yep, I would have rolled up on the kid, told him that someone thought he was suspicious, and ask where he was going. He can easily tell me to pound sand, but odds are, he will probably tell me that he just came from the store, and is going back to his father's home.

10-8, no report... now, let's go find the guy who called in that kid as suspicious, and see exactly why they believed so.

I see no problem with that at all. I think everyone would agree that this is how it would likely have gone if either party would have made better decisions.

 

[Kutnupe14]

There's still no clear path from here to there.

Not recognizing someone isn't all that suspicious in itself. Are you saying that not being recognized when coupled with other factors is still irrelevant?

I don't know if all the nits you're picking is to up your post count like others have sugested, I am trying to find some sense of reasoning. But if that's your reason, I not really interested in posting for the sake of posting.

What factors? Oh, those I just listed.

 

[griffin]

First I've heard of any reports of Martin circling around the car cursing Zimmerman.

It was in one of the police audio calls. The Sanford PD has taken those down so you can't listen to them now, but I did find this analysis of it. Best I can do for now.

Treeper Lee M sends this audio analysis with graphic consideration…. | The Last Refuge

First I've heard of any eye witnesses to who the first punch. I've not read anywhere that there was an eye witness to the first punch.

I did not say there was a witness to who threw the first punch (although there might have been but as far as we know, no, the police have not indicated that). What I said was: Zimmerman was taken to the scene for walk-throughs three different times in the immediate aftermath. Each time, according the to police reports, he was grilled about exactly what happened and how. He was also told there were eye witnesses to the events of that night, although he had absolutely no idea what they had seen.

In each walk-through, and in each interview, his story never changed. Not once. And every credible eye witness backs up his story to a tee.

The police told him there were witnesses. The police did not tell him how many or what they saw. I suspect that is a technique LEOs use to pressure people into telling the truth, knowing they can be shown to be lying if witnesses say otherwise. So Zimmerman recreated the shooting, and not only didn't his story change, but it didn't contradict anything the witnesses did tell the police. Nothing. Either Zimmerman told the truth or he is really, really lucky. Zimmerman's statement was that Trayvon sucker-punched him and jumped on top when Zimmerman hit the ground.

Where are the reports of these witnesses?

Police investigation. We know about them because someone in the SPD leaked them to the press. Afterward, when the press confronted the SPD, they admitted the witness reports backed up Zimmerman. This has been posted here in this thread. More than once.

There were investigators who DID want to charge him.

There was one cop who didn't believe Zimmerman, although he had not a single shred of proof. He wanted Zimmerman to have to stand trial. Even in court so far the LEOs have stated they have no evidence to indicate that Zimmerman was lying in anything he said.

There are people here who feel the same way. Make him stand trial. I know a cop on another board who thinks his job is to arrest everyone and let the legal system sort it out.

 

[Kutnupe14]

And that's a reasonable police action I think.

It's just as reasonable as a citizen action.

 

[Bond 281]

And you know what's funny? I remember people (I really don't remember who) that were talking all sorts of crap about Zimmerman (wannabe cop, making up reasons to profile him, etc) when the transcript came out and he said that Martin looked like he might have been high or on drugs or something. And now that evidence actually comes to light....guess what? Martin was probably high! Zimmerman's story, yet again, is backed up with evidence.

 

[hornadylnl]

There's still no clear path from here to there.

Not recognizing someone isn't all that suspicious in itself. Are you saying that not being recognized when coupled with other factors is still irrelevant?

I don't know if all the nits you're picking is to up your post count like others have sugested, I am trying to find some sense of reasoning. But if that's your reason, I not really interested in posting for the sake of posting.

Damn, you guys are on to me now. I was hoping to get 30,000 posts in this thread so I could start my very own thread bragging about it.

 

[hornadylnl]

I see no problem with that at all. I think everyone would agree that this is how it would likely have gone if either party would have made better decisions.

You mean like the neighborhood watch captain identifying himself to Martin and why he was following him?

 

[Bond 281]

You mean like the neighborhood watch captain identifying himself to Martin and why he was following him?

See, now there's a good point. I don't know if he tried to or not. Maybe he didn't get a chance to, or maybe he neglected to do so. That would be a bad decision on Zimmerman's part. I'm not some sort of die-hard Zimmerman supporter, but I'm damn sure not going to jump on the side of a black teenager when all the evidence backs up Zimmerman. I'm sure there were mistakes and misunderstandings with both parties. However, I'm not going to crucify Zimmerman just because he didn't handle things optimally. Because ultimately, if Martin did jump Zimmerman and sucker punch him instead of going home, then Martin is to blame and Zimmerman should go scot free.

 

[CarmelHP]

You mean like the neighborhood watch captain identifying himself to Martin and why he was following him?

If Z shouldn't go near or follow M how is he supposed to announce that?

 

[jamil]

You mean like the neighborhood watch captain identifying himself to Martin and why he was following him?

Yeah, that'd have been good. So can you concede how martin may have reacted wiser?

 

[Pocketman]

You mean like the neighborhood watch captain identifying himself to Martin and why he was following him?

Zimmerman not identifying himself to Martin was a factor in the police wanting to initially charge Zimmerman.

 

[griffin]

Zimmerman not identifying himself to Martin was a factor in the police wanting to initially charge Zimmerman.

I wonder how that argument goes? By not identifying he caused Trayvon to attack him, thus he is responsible for the altercation?

As long as Travyon was using Zimmerman's head like a basketball, Zimmerman was good to go on the shoot. My understanding is the only question is whether the SYG part comes into play (thus civil immunity). The plain old self-defense argument is always there regardless.

 

[cobber]

now, let's go find the guy who called in that kid as suspicious, and see exactly why they believed so.

REALLY?

So citizens are going to be held accountable by the po-pos for calling in 'suspicious' things?

THAT'S really going to encourage citizens to view the police as an ally in the war on crime or terror or whatever...