Wow this was fast

[SavageEagle]

Native Americans would be hard pressed to assimilate into our society to work and live when almost all our morals and laws go against theirs. They stay on the Reservations by choice, kinda. They have no where else to go.

We're talking about a culture that lived off the land and depended on no one but themselves and Mother Nature. Nature provided them everything they ever needed. They had more than one camp. A summer and winter camp. They had food to hunt. They made their own things from what Nature provided. We took that away from them. Now they make and sell what they can, forced to use casinos as revenue, etc. If nothing else we owe them more land. Give them some wide open land, more than what they have and let them be. They know how to live in harmony with Nature. Anyone who's spent time with them knows what I mean.

 

[SavageEagle]

Ain't nobody forcing them to stay on the reservation, either. I've got no more sympathy for them than I do someone in the inner city whining about where they live. Frigging move. There's always a way.

Only if they are forced to change the way they live, what they believe, and how they live. Technically, I think that would be unConstitutional to force them to change the way they live if they live by, what we would call, their religion. In a way, it's abridging their freedom of religion. They cannot use ceremonial maijuana outside of their Reservation. I know that makes them sound like potheaded hippies, but marijuana plays a large part in their society and ceremonies along with many other things we consider illegal. Those things are illegal outside of a reservation.

 

[Joe Williams]

Only if they are forced to change the way they live, what they believe, and how they live. Technically, I think that would be unConstitutional to force them to change the way they live if they live by, what we would call, their religion. In a way, it's abridging their freedom of religion. They cannot use ceremonial maijuana outside of their Reservation. I know that makes them sound like potheaded hippies, but marijuana plays a large part in their society and ceremonies along with many other things we consider illegal. Those things are illegal outside of a reservation.

Then they've made their choice. I've still got nothing for them. Nothing at all. I don't like all the choices I have to make to be part of society, but I don't feel like living like they do. Life is full of choices. I have to take responsibility for mine. So do they. We don't owe them crap.

 

[Metro 40]

.

 

[clt46910]

Go to New Mexico or Arizona and live around them for a while. Then come and tell us about them. There is a lot more there then most of us know. They have a lot more opportunities then most of us. What choices they make are their choice. Many make good decisions and choices, some don't. We mostly hear about the ones the make poor choices. Living on the reservation is not really that bad a choice.

I enjoyed spending time with my friends that lived there. They also worked a job. They had free land and no taxes. Build there house, lot of free land to run around in and play. Just could not ever sell it outside another tribe member.

Most choose to live in town and buy a home that they could resale at a later time. Building up a retirement fund like many of us did. Most Native Americans do very well. They are like anyone else work hard and enjoy the fruits of your labors.

The one thing I did find interesting is the interaction between tribes. Some still hold a lot of hate and discrimination between tribes.

 

[SavageEagle]

Then they've made their choice. I've still got nothing for them. Nothing at all. I don't like all the choices I have to make to be part of society, but I don't feel like living like they do. Life is full of choices. I have to take responsibility for mine. So do they. We don't owe them crap.

And you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that. I don't agree with it but that's my opinion. I think we owe them at least the courtesy to allow them to practice their rituals the way they want, where ever they want, whenever they want. Currently they cannot do that. When it comes to Native Americans we have a double standard. We cater to other religions' needs but shun NA's needs. Why should their practices be illegal outside of their reservations? They owned the land we call home and their culture, which unlike many others that have been conquered, still exists today. So why should our laws trump theirs when it comes to their lives?

Sure we have to conform to the laws of the land, or get involved and change them. But we are the foriegners on borrowed land, they are not. IMHO it's barbaric to say that they must conform to our way of life and to hell with theirs.

 

[SavageEagle]

Go to New Mexico or Arizona and live around them for a while. Then come and tell us about them. There is a lot more there then most of us know. They have a lot more opportunities then most of us. What choices they make are their choice. Many make good decisions and choices, some don't. We mostly hear about the ones the make poor choices. Living on the reservation is not really that bad a choice.

I enjoyed spending time with my friends that lived there. They also worked a job. They had free land and no taxes. Build there house, lot of free land to run around in and play. Just could not ever sell it outside another tribe member.

Most choose to live in town and buy a home that they could resale at a later time. Building up a retirement fund like many of us did. Most Native Americans do very well. They are like anyone else work hard and enjoy the fruits of your labors.

The one thing I did find interesting is the interaction between tribes. Some still hold a lot of hate and discrimination between tribes.

You're very right. Some do live good, but some do not. I've seen both and it appears to be more that live worse. I've not seen all reservations, but I have been to a bunch. Mostly in the south, but one in North Dakota and one in New Mexico. The one in New Mexico was much better off than the rest and apparently the ones in Texas are nice too.

You talked about the tribes that still hold grudges. Well, some of it is understandable. If they had all worked together long ago, we wouldn't have settle much of the west. Maybe even America would have been split into 2/3rds us and a 1/3 them. But they couldn't see past their own differences and own past transgrestions and was ultimately their downfall. Kinda sad actually.

 

[Lt. Commander]

Reparations......

Scott

 

[CarmelHP]

They are as foreign as anyone else. They didn't spring up ex nihilo on land they never left. Intertribal warfare, land gabbing, and slavery was practiced throughout the Americas. This romantic Noble Savage ideal has no basis in history. It's a fable.

But we are the foriegners on borrowed land, they are not. IMHO it's barbaric to say that they must conform to our way of life and to hell with theirs.

 

[SavageEagle]

They are as foreign as anyone else. They didn't spring up ex nihilo on land they never left. Intertribal warfare, land gabbing, and slavery was practiced throughout the Americas. This romantic Noble Savage ideal has no basis in history. It's a fable.

Considering they settle the Americas' Thousands of years before the Europeans, I'd say it was their land first and foremost. But as I told Joe, you are entitled to your opinion and I will respect that. But I really believe that you aren't very well versed in Native American Culture. Just an observation. Not trying to be disrespectful.

 

[CarmelHP]

Who did? Which ones do we give it to? There were different tribes with different interests, just as in Europe a thousand years ago. There is even some evidence that white Europeans nomads predated Asian migrations into the Americas and were subsequently wiped out by the invaders 14,000 years ago. I think you have a distorted and romantic, very revisionist, view of this history. It's a view that has only been around since everyone who had first hand experience died off.

Considering they settle the Americas' Thousands of years before the Europeans, I'd say it was their land first and foremost. But as I told Joe, you are entitled to your opinion and I will respect that. But I really believe that you aren't very well versed in Native American Culture. Just an observation. Not trying to be disrespectful.

 

[4sarge]

If they had all worked together long ago, we wouldn't have settle much of the west. Maybe even America would have been split into 2/3rds us and a 1/3 them. But they couldn't see past their own differences and own past transgrestions and was ultimately their downfall. Kinda sad actually.

Sad, same parallel could be made about gun owners

 

[haldir]

And we know much of the slave trade was aided and abetted by other Africans that rounded up their fellow Africans and sold them to the slave traders.

 

[SavageEagle]

Who did? Which ones do we give it to? There were different tribes with different interests, just as in Europe a thousand years ago. There is even some evidence that white Europeans nomads predated Asian migrations into the Americas and were subsequently wiped out by the invaders 14,000 years ago. I think you have a distorted and romantic, very revisionist, view of this history. It's a view that has only been around since everyone who had first hand experience died off.

Give what to who??? Money? Land? I'm thinking more rights than land or money, but land would be a good thing to give BACK to them. How many european "tribes" still are alive in Europe? Full blooded Natives that is... NONE. There are none. Native Americans, full blooded tribespeople, in full tribes, are still here, in America. But I guess we owe them nothing? They deserve nothing at all for how they are treated today, Now?

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree here.

Sad, same parallel could be made about gun owners

Sadly, very true.

 

[dburkhead]

Give what to who??? Money? Land? I'm thinking more rights than land or money, but land would be a good thing to give BACK to them.

What rights do you want to give them? As of June 2, 1924 All Native Americans born in the United States were made Citizens. Although some State laws denied some of them the right to vote until later. But as of 1947 legal barriers to their right to vote were removed and as of 1965, the Civil Rights Act forbade the use of literacy tests and other such voting tests nationwide, for everyone, including for Native Americans.

Thus, they have all the rights of citizens of the United States. But wait, there's more. They also get tax breaks on businesses run from Reservations by the various Indian Nations. In at least some states Native Americans can hunt and fish without having to deal with things like licenses (which, really, is nothing more than a tax on hunting and fishing).

So what rights do you want to give them?

 

[SavageEagle]

The rights to practice their "religion" outside of the reservations. Some commonly used ceremonial pieces are illegal in our society. If used outside of the reservations they become criminals. That would be a good start.

 

[dburkhead]

The rights to practice their "religion" outside of the reservations. Some commonly used ceremonial pieces are illegal in our society. If used outside of the reservations they become criminals. That would be a good start.

Could you be more specific. What "ceremonial pieces"? If you're talking about the mushrooms bit which made the news some years ago, 1) I think the "war on drugs" is counterproductive at best anyway, but 2) Native Americans aren't singled out for that treatment and, if they can use that stuff on the Reservation, have more "rights" in that regard than other folk whose religious beliefs might involve mind-altering substances.

If it's something else, then please elucidate.

 

[SavageEagle]

Well, yes, I was refering somewhat to marijuana, "shrooms", and peyote, but also other ceremonies aswell.

THings along the lines of celebratory War ceremonies that involve the killing of animals, various other ceremonies and rituals, the rights to freely hunt on land not already privately owned for animals that are not protected or endangered, things of this nature. They are not allowed to live off the land unless it's already on the reservation. Keep in mind that not all land is privately owned and government land isn't all just National/State parks either.

 

[dburkhead]

Well, yes, I was refering somewhat to marijuana, "shrooms", and peyote, but also other ceremonies aswell.

THings along the lines of celebratory War ceremonies that involve the killing of animals, various other ceremonies and rituals, the rights to freely hunt on land not already privately owned for animals that are not protected or endangered, things of this nature. They are not allowed to live off the land unless it's already on the reservation. Keep in mind that not all land is privately owned and government land isn't all just National/State parks either.

So, basically, you want to give them special privileges not given to anybody else in the US?

 

[SavageEagle]

So, basically, you want to give them special privileges not given to anybody else in the US?

No, not at all. I want all Americans to have the privledges. Most of which are already guaranteed by the Constitution, but denied by Washington's corruption.