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Woman refused service for Black Lives Matter shirt at farmer’s market
- Thread starter wtburnette
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Those aren't the only options. It's neither supportive, nor "quashing". It's a reaction to the name of a group from the perspective of a different world view. I would never condone a group called "White Lives Matter". I would see that as racist. Why wouldn't I naturally project that on a group, even notwithstanding minority status, calling themselves "Black Lives Matter"?
That's the crux of that sentiment. Words have meaning. You may intend those words to imply all lives matter. But that's not what those words mean to many of us especially when we see people taking over political rallies, doing all they can to stifle the free speech of dissenters, shaming people for daring to protest other causes besides theirs.
In another discussion some time ago, I made a similar point, and you took the time to explain what Black people believe BLM means. Okay. I get that. It would help if they behaved like they mean it the way you explained it. They name their rallies things like "weekend of rage"? Their idea of officially denouncing the shooting of cops is, "we don't condone violence, but we understand why they're doing it." I know tacit approval when I hear it.
And that's not to say that all BLM leaders are like that. I can respect the Pastor in Dallas who said, "This is a devastating time for us as activists and organizers. We cannot bring about justice through violence."
But the behavior of so many BLM supporters doesn't help people see past the inferred racism in the name. And it's not going to have the affect they want, and make the people who stereotype Black people, stop doing it.
I'm appreciate your candor, and laying it out there. I'm going to do the same. It's like the meme that GPIA posted. The way BLM is behaving isn't going to help with that.
We see them continually skewing narratives, only to find out the facts end up not supporting the narrative. Trayvon Martin wasn't murdered, contrary to the narrative that started BLM. Michael Brown, wasn't executed by cops for being black--"hands up don't shoot" didn't happen--which is the narrative that catapulted BLM to a national level.
THOSE incidents taught honest people to "wait for the evidence", and question even to ask questions like, "what happened before the video started". We've both been through it before. I initially bought into what became a false narrative for Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown. And from those I learned that I can't trust the first narrative. I'm just not going to be suckered anymore. I'll wait until the facts are in. And when they're in, I'll be as intellectually honest as I can be. If the facts point to racism, it's racism. If not, it's not.
Contrast Dallas and other recent police shootings. Like most live coverage, even though there was a lot of false reporting, the event was covered live by the media as it was happening. By the end of the evening, we knew enough of the facts to figure out what happened. And thereafter giving time for more facts to come out, the general narrative did not change substantially from what we knew the same evening.
But with BLM, even 2 years after Ferguson, I hear them say "hands up don't shoot". I heard just a few days ago on national TV a BLM representative say that Michael Brown was executed for being black. No. He was shot because he was charging towards a police officer, after having wrestled for his gun.
When BLM continues to spread demonstrably false narratives, why are they still credible with Black people? I honestly don't get that. I mean, I'd be angry for being lied to. I get angry when the NRA uses dishonesty to up memberships and donations. C'mon. Demand better.
Reactions from a different point of view are certainly acceptable. When people say things like if it's fair to have organizations similar to those organized by minority groups, I understand they feel as if something is being formed to bring harm to them in some way. However, I must ask, has there ever been a time when White people in America needed to form organizations to protect themselves from injustice? If so, I am in need of some education on the subject.
I am not saying the words imply all lives matter. The words are saying Black lives matter, too. I do not condone anyone taking over political rallies or breaking the law in any way. I attended a Donald Trump rally, along with many others and did not attempt to take over.
I have to agree with you on this, too. The problem we are facing is, people on all sides are fed of with not being heard and at the same time refusing to listen to what others are saying. I understand anger, but when that anger is allowed to act without bridle, that person becomes part of the problem. However, it's very easy to focus on the people who are doing it wrong and label the entire group -- very similar to what some do with police officers -- but, the actions of a few cannot label the entire organization.
This is being said all over the place, but those voices are not getting the air time.
I agree to a point. When you say "so many" I'm not sure how many there really are. I'm not sure what will ever change the view some people have about Black people and I'm past caring. I'm not saying that I don't want some semblance of unity and will join with anyone who wants to see liberty for all. But, if the retort continues to be, "We all have liberty!" when I know that's not the case, I will move on.
Yeah, facts are facts and I can't argue with that, but just as you can list the cases where some got it wrong, there have been just as many cases where the police were found to be at fault. You mentioned worldviews above and my worldview makes me question how Black people are killed, while I see many videos of White men being taken in after the police put in time to de-escalate. There are many testimonies from Black politicians and even police officers, describing the treatment they receive when not immediately recognized as one of those on their side. I'm not talking about being treated bad, but Constitutional rights being trampled. There was just a video posted about a young man who was being served a warrant, but the officers had the wrong person. They never asked for identification, but lied and said they did. There are all kinds of videos and not to mention what I've experienced personally. Should I not question? I accept any findings in a court of law, but like you, I still question the outcome. I've read on INGO and have heard many people say, "Love your country, but don't trust your government"? I support this sentiment and believe in accountability for those whom we give power.
Yeah, we can all pull out videos and other examples that help our argument, but I only ask that we look at the body of work for all involved and then ask why things are the way they are?
Bottom line, I value every person on this forum! We may disagree on many things, but I believe I would have any of you at my dinner table. My mind is tired and I'm honestly filled with grief over the senseless deaths that happen in our country. God has given us a gift and we are not taking advantage of it. I just wish it were possible to appreciate everything of value in every person and bring correction when needed. Unfortunately, this will never happen. What I experience is not the problem of anyone here, but mine alone and I get that. It is not your problem to speak for me, so I try to speak for myself, taking all points of view into consideration. I don't do it well all the time, but I try. I don't know what I'm trying to say, but I'm really just tired of all the fighting and hate coming from every side.
Amen to that Que.
I think BLM came out with anger and "F the police" (I know I remember that from the Ferguson debacle) and given those facts, yes, I'd say that's a hate group... starting off with hate for the police, hate for White people, etc., and idiots like Jackson and Sharpton didn't help.
I honestly don't know about the 1960s vis a vis the King marches. Did they start with "F the police" or some similar sentiment, that Dr. King quashed and turned to non-violence?
Given your narrative of how it happened, I'd have to say that BLM being answered "ALM" would be more towards quashing than supporting. I'd also say, though, that given the 20/20 hindsight, I'd go back and ask instead, "Why do BLM more or less than anyone else's?", which I think is probably a better way of saying the same thing. Even going back long before the BLM group, back to Rodney King, the anti police sentiment was strong, and I recall a documentary wherein the chief of police and mayor were saying things on the radio that intentionally whipped up the populace to riot no matter what Rodney's verdict was.
I know also from whence you speak re: "wait for the evidence". It could be taken as "don't trust the news to get it right, certainly not immediately" and that would be wise. You seem to be saying that it's more that people are waiting for the evidence to support that it was the Black man who started everything. Consider, though, how the whole thing with Trayvon was broadcast: GZ was portrayed as "a White man", TM was shown only in the oh-so-innocent/cherubic pics of him from years earlier, 911 tapes were altered before being played for the public, much like Couric recently did to the group from there in VA... So is it fair to say to wait? I think so, but only if we say that no matter who is accused and who is shot.
Lastly, if all lives do not matter to all, then those to whom they do not should get some education. It's a slower process than forcing it down people's throats, but they accept it better when it's not forced. Too, when neighborhoods are not exclusive, that is, when kids grow up knowing that the kid next door is fun to play with, it doesn't matter, and they don't notice the color of his skin, until some adult makes it a big deal.
I think also that that education needs to be for all. Not just White people, not just Black people. All.
Blessings,
Bill
I honestly don't know about the 1960s vis a vis the King marches. Did they start with "F the police" or some similar sentiment, that Dr. King quashed and turned to non-violence?
Given your narrative of how it happened, I'd have to say that BLM being answered "ALM" would be more towards quashing than supporting. I'd also say, though, that given the 20/20 hindsight, I'd go back and ask instead, "Why do BLM more or less than anyone else's?", which I think is probably a better way of saying the same thing. Even going back long before the BLM group, back to Rodney King, the anti police sentiment was strong, and I recall a documentary wherein the chief of police and mayor were saying things on the radio that intentionally whipped up the populace to riot no matter what Rodney's verdict was.
I know also from whence you speak re: "wait for the evidence". It could be taken as "don't trust the news to get it right, certainly not immediately" and that would be wise. You seem to be saying that it's more that people are waiting for the evidence to support that it was the Black man who started everything. Consider, though, how the whole thing with Trayvon was broadcast: GZ was portrayed as "a White man", TM was shown only in the oh-so-innocent/cherubic pics of him from years earlier, 911 tapes were altered before being played for the public, much like Couric recently did to the group from there in VA... So is it fair to say to wait? I think so, but only if we say that no matter who is accused and who is shot.
Lastly, if all lives do not matter to all, then those to whom they do not should get some education. It's a slower process than forcing it down people's throats, but they accept it better when it's not forced. Too, when neighborhoods are not exclusive, that is, when kids grow up knowing that the kid next door is fun to play with, it doesn't matter, and they don't notice the color of his skin, until some adult makes it a big deal.
I think also that that education needs to be for all. Not just White people, not just Black people. All.
Blessings,
Bill
hoosierdoc
Freed prisoner
I asked a young teen in the ER once what his "stop snitching" shirt meant. It said "snitches get stitches". He told me
his reasoning and I gave him a few examples of people raped and murdered that I'd seen that year and asked how he would feel if that happened to his family and no one would help find the guy who did it. He got really uncomfortably really quickly.
engagement helps I think.
if someone has a shirt on saying #BlackLivesMatter it won't bother me. If it adds "F*** the police" or something strong and absurd then we'll have issues.
his reasoning and I gave him a few examples of people raped and murdered that I'd seen that year and asked how he would feel if that happened to his family and no one would help find the guy who did it. He got really uncomfortably really quickly.
engagement helps I think.
if someone has a shirt on saying #BlackLivesMatter it won't bother me. If it adds "F*** the police" or something strong and absurd then we'll have issues.
Yes, but not specifically because of race. National origin, sure. Italians, Irish, Jews, many various immigrants have formed associations that help them provide a response against unfair treatment.
But not White. White people do form organizations that help fight what they believe is injustice, and those groups tend to be formed with mostly White people. The focus isn't on race, it's on the injustice for all. The TEA Party is such an organization. We're taxed unjustly too much--not just white people. The NRA has become the primary .org for fighting the injustice of gun control--not just against white people.
To me, saying black lives matter, too, implies that all lives matter. But neither is implicit in the words. I've seen various polls on what people take that to mean, and it's fairly split. Some people think all lives matters is implicit. Some don't. I didn't. And the political rallies I thought of weren't the Trump rallies, but that's certainly an example. I was thinking more of the Bernie Sanders rally that BLM took over. Also, more recently, the rally that LGBTs had over Orlando, when A BLM supporter took the mic and shamed the crowd for having a rally for some other cause than hers.
They've had plenty of chances for air time. When we heard the chants, "What do we want?", what was the unified response from the crowd? It wasn't "justice". It was "dead cops". We're hearing the most prominent voices of BLM, and not the reasonable voices. I suspect that the rank and file BLM supporters don't really want dead cops. My message to peaceful people is, if they want a peaceful message sent, the loudest voice must not call for violence.
Instead, we have the NBP vowing to show up to the RNC armed. And though I hear a few members of BLM admonishing them not to do it, from the leadership I hear tacit approval.
I'm not saying we all have liberty. Being a libertarian leaning conservative, I don't believe that we all have liberty. I am acknowledging that there is racism still. And I'm saying that the way BLM is going about it will likely not make it better.
When the police are found to be at fault, they should be prosecuted. Not much burns my temper more than seeing people with authority abuse it.
As for some kind of systemic racism, given the differing world views and biases in play on both sides, I suspect that the truth lies somewhere between. It's probably worse than White people want to admit, and it's probably not as bad as Black people believe.
searpinski
Expert
The Bubba Effect
Grandmaster
I will relate a single instance and hope you trust me that it was not unusual in my experience.
I attended IU Bloomington in the mid to late 90's. One day I saw a flier for a class that was described as focusing on teaching children about nature. Reflecting on my own childhood growing up in rural southern Indiana, I figured it was important for children to learn about nature and I signed up for this class hoping to learn something about teaching children.
Much to my disappointment, this class turned out to consist exclusively of the students and instructor sitting in a circle on the floor with the instructor presenting as fact fanciful stories of how the native americans were noble, passive, respecting of all gender and other cultures and how they never took more than they needed and used every bit of what they took, all the time being perfect conservators of mother Earth.
This message of the perfection of the native americans was delivered alongside a constant condemnation of the "paternalistic white male hegemony" of the Europeans. If this sounds outlandishly one sided to you, you can only imagine how much so it sounded to me.
At first I honestly thought it was a gag, but after a few weeks, I was struck with the reality that this was all we were going to be doing. We would sit in a circle for an hour two days a week and we would listen to this instructor spin a bunch of nonsense and then have a "discussion" session which consisted of various students agreeing with her and attempting to outdo each other in their idolization of the native american and their condemnation of the white man. I **** you not. About 1/4 of the class were white males and they usually were the most emphatic, excepting myself and one other guy.
I took issue with this nonsense because I saw it for what it was (some pointless hippy circle jerk) and I was paying from my own pocket for an education. At the same time I took this class, I was also taking a 300 level anthro class that focused on the culture of some native americans who lived in what it today canada. In that class, we learned about the ways, beliefs, wars, and hunting practices of these people. Their angelic or demonic nature was never discussed because this was an academic class and moral descriptions like that belong in churches not college lectures. After quietly fuming for half the semester, I started bringing up what I was learning in this anthro class during my hippy classes discussion sessions.
My hippy instructor and most of the rest of the class was horrified when I told them of the violence, waste, treatment of women, and actual documented ecological damage (still observable today, hundreds of years later) of these tribes I was studying in Anthro. Rather than dig into these statements or acknowledge that native american tribes were not all the same and had different practices, my instructor just kind of huffed and puffed and said that she did not want to hear about that and we went back to hearing political and racial nonsense week in, week out. It was like marxism for children without the economic theory (aside from "everyone should just share like the native americans" and with a heavy dose of racism and fantasy.
That class was full of white kids who openly said they were ashamed to be white and every week stated that the native americans were superior to the viscous European conquerors and us, their progeny.
Obviously I thought it was a bunch of horse ****. The only grade we received was based on anonymous course reviews we were to hand in at the end of the semester and everyone was to receive an A.
In my course review, I told my instructor that I was incredibly disappointed that we spend all of our time on some pointless fantasy indoctrination and we never actually covered anything about teaching children about nature. I wrote a fairly extensive course review and signed my name to it as I explained in the review that I would not feel right handing in such criticism anonymously.
Absolutely the only good thing that came from that class was one other guy pulled me aside after class with about three weeks to go and told me that he agreed that this was all a bunch of **** and a real disappointment. Good luck though, he was a member of the IU Bass fishing club and invited me to join. That was awesome, we fished a lot went to tournaments, drank some beer, beat purdue on their lake, won the big ten tournament in Minneapolis and generally had a great time. So I guess that hippy class was not a total waste of time.
I kind of got off track, but trust me man, that class was taught by a white woman and all the students were white kids and all we did for an entire semester was sit in a circle and talk about how awesome the native americans were, how much white people sucked and how bad we felt for being inferior to them. I **** you not, one of the guys had us start calling him "wolf" or "brother wolf" about 3/4 through the semester.
There were not any black students in the class. Maybe black people don't see this nonsense for whatever reason.
Trust me Kut, this is real, it happens. I majored in comparative literature for 2 years, stuff like this was more common in my experience at IU than it was rare.
TL/DR VERSION: IU is full of hippies and they lie to everyone about history and live in a fantasy land where the white man is the big bad.
What's wrong with this?
"...and the victims of the Dallas police shootings."
“We definitely want to pay respect to the cops in Baton Rouge and Dallas. There’s just a lot going on in the world right now,” said Tamika Catchings, who scored 23 points to lead the team. “And of course, we stand united in supporting Black Lives Matter. So, we wanted to come out and show our support and win a game.”
What's wrong with this?
"...and the victims of the Dallas police shootings."
“We definitely want to pay respect to the cops in Baton Rouge and Dallas. There’s just a lot going on in the world right now,” said Tamika Catchings, who scored 23 points to lead the team. “And of course, we stand united in supporting Black Lives Matter. So, we wanted to come out and show our support and win a game.”
Absolutely nothing, it's commendable if they'd just left off the supporting of the Black Lives Matter organization.
Stickfight
Expert
What would the issues be?
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