Why Do So Many On INGO Hate HOA's?

[phylodog]

HOA...where the agreement you think you signed up for can be changed overnight by your neighbors having a meeting....

But it isn't taking away rights....

 

[foszoe]

100!

The mods will be proud

 

[Ingomike]

And only 49% of them said they’d want to live in a HOA neighborhood again.

As I said I would be in that 49%, I want a place far enough away from the neighbors that I can’t see them and feel the need agreements with them as to how we will live.

 

[Ingomike]

Precisely. He's gone on and on for over a week attempting to justify his desire to control the property of others for personal gain. First it was supposed to be ok because the law allows it, but the law allows mutilating the genitalia of minors with mental health issues so that's not really solid ground. Then we had surveys and stats to show us how overwhelmingly loved HOAs are and how INGO is just a bunch of ignorant hicks, until surveys and stats showing a different perspective were posted then all of a sudden surveys and stats became notoriously unreliable.

And you are reversing things again. Your boys posted stats that they just loved throwing about so I found them some stats, including stats from their own sources that they didn’t want posted because they refute their premise.

 

[jamil]

And you are reversing things again. Your boys posted stats that they just loved throwing about so I found them some stats, including stats from their own sources that they didn’t want posted because they refute their premise.

Nothing has refuted any premises. Except yours. And when that is pointed out, you say you can't trust internet surveys. But you were happy enough to post cherry picked stats that you claimed supported your position.

So now that we're in the arguing about the arguments point of this "discussion", probably the pinapple on pizza [not pizza] phase is soon coming.

 

[Ingomike]

Nothing has refuted any premises. Except yours. And when that is pointed out, you say you can't trust internet surveys. But you were happy enough to post cherry picked stats that you claimed supported your position.

So now that we're in the arguing about the arguments point of this "discussion", probably the pinapple on pizza [not pizza] phase is soon coming.

I am 100% right on what the law is and the practical application. That you and a couple of others cannot understand that requiring the entire bundle of rights to be sold is taking rights away landowners currently have and no law created that is allowed, unless you get your way and take that right, is your problem.

You were the one that kept pushing stats from internet surveys while I was talking freedom for landowners, it is rich with irony that you now complain when this same surveys show people believe very differently than the 14% you kept trying to push as some definitive point.

 

[foszoe]

I am 100% right

I think this is your default position.

 

[jamil]

I am 100% right on what the law is and the practical application.

No one has disputed what the law is. Again I have to remind you that you asked why people hate HOA's. And they told you their opinions, and why it ought to be different.

That you and a couple of others cannot understand that requiring the entire bundle of rights to be sold is taking rights away landowners currently have and no law created that is allowed, unless you get your way and take that right, is your problem.

Bundle of rights? Nah. Lawyerz concocted ways to complicate things to require them to be involved in every land transaction. And this is the spin you put on your arguments, that it's taking away rights that don't exist outside of legalese.

You were the one that kept pushing stats from internet surveys while I was talking freedom for landowners, it is rich with irony that you now complain when this same surveys show people believe very differently than the 14% you kept trying to push as some definitive point.

Yes. You kept using a "market" rationale for why HOA's exist rather than lawyers and land owners colluding to impose restrictions on buyers. The 14% is definitive in the point I made.

If it were a free market, since only 14% of the population likes HOA's, we should see that proportion bear out in new homes being built in neighborhoods with HOA's. Instead we're seeing ~80% of new homes being built in HOA's. The issue is, the only market you care about is the developer's market. They want HOA's because they believe it protects their investment.

Of course, I've already made those points, but since you forgot about why that 14% number was important, I restated it.

 

[phylodog]

Someone still screaming about a seller's rights to dictate garage door color while simultaneously taking the actual owner's rights to utilize their property in a perfectly reasonable and normal fashion?

 

[Ingomike]

Someone still screaming about a seller's rights to dictate garage door color while simultaneously taking the actual owner's rights to utilize their property in a perfectly reasonable and normal fashion?

Just can’t state the truth and the hyperbole is over the top. Who is “screaming”. If you don’t like it say you don’t like it. Stating it in overwrought terms like dictate, take, and forced are just not true and devalue your opinion.

I get what you want and I want that for some property I would buy but not all. Can you not understand that some folks have different values than you and are just as entitled to what they want as you are but what you propose would take that right away from both buyers that want an HOA and sellers that want an HOA…

 

[phylodog]

Nope. Don't like it one bit.

 

[Ingomike]

No one has disputed what the law is. Again I have to remind you that you asked why people hate HOA's. And they told you their opinions, and why it ought to be different.

Many of the posts don’t seem to understand the law when they use dictate, take, and forced to characterize the lack of a law restricting sellers maximum freedom to sell as they wish and some here still will not acknowledge that is taking seller rights.

Bundle of rights? Nah. Lawyerz concocted ways to complicate things to require them to be involved in every land transaction. And this is the spin you put on your arguments, that it's taking away rights that don't exist outside of legalese.

Since property ownership is legal, requiring a deed that meets legal standards to be recorded with the county they are already involved and that deed would be worthless if one didn’t have the existence of the force of government to even claim ownership rights.

Yes. You kept using a "market" rationale for why HOA's exist rather than lawyers and land owners colluding to impose restrictions on buyers. The 14% is definitive in the point I made.

Your tin foil hat is getting tight. Obviously landowners need lawyers to draw up the legal documents but just what collusion do they have together against a free market? If they are they should be sued for antitrust.

If it were a free market, since only 14% of the population likes HOA's, we should see that proportion bear out in new homes being built in neighborhoods with HOA's. Instead we're seeing ~80% of new homes being built in HOA's. The issue is, the only market you care about is the developer's market. They want HOA's because they believe it protects their investment.

I have laid out the three separate markets that exist and all of them have the power to affect the overall market. If you guys cannot at least acknowledge the crazy that people can do that could damage a developer and neighbors is off the chart you can never understand why others want them. And as the crazy gets worse the covenants have had to become more detailed to combat that crazy. Markets work and no one is manipulating them, they are reacting to crazy.

Of course, I've already made those points, but since you forgot about why that 14% number was important, I restated it.

Here is the actual quote. There is so much ambiguity to it the answer is meaningless.

“Most Americans — 61% — say they would prefer to live in a neighborhood without an HOA; 14% would prefer to live with one, and 24% have no preference or aren't sure.”

It is actually funny that they didn’t get 100% on that question. That is like asking; “would you prefer not to gain weight?“

The exact same people answered several questions that give different insights. The people that live in HOA’s, those that you want to take their right to buy in an HOA have different views than those like you that hate an HOA.

“More Americans believe HOAs have a very or somewhat negative effect on the communities they govern (45%) than a very or somewhat positive effect (21%); 21% say the effect is neutral. People who live in HOA-governed communities have a more optimistic outlook: 47% say HOAs' effect is positive, 27% say it is negative, and 21% say it is neutral.”

Of those who live in an HOA majorities like or even love an HOA.

While many people living in HOA neighborhoods say they would prefer not to, more strongly or somewhat approve (58%) than disapprove (32%) of how the HOA in their neighborhood is governed. And more say they love or like living in a neighborhood with an HOA (54%) than say they hate or dislike it (34%).

And who keeps bringing up that HOA’s are best suited for homes that are close together?

“Americans who live in HOA-governed neighborhoods are more likely than those who don't to say houses in their neighborhood are built close together (74% vs. 54%).”

I have repeatedly said I am glad we all have options but many here, including you, want to take those options away. I’m glad you will never be able to do that as evidenced by the stats in the poll you linked

 

[Creedmoor]

Many of the posts don’t seem to understand the law when they use dictate, take, and forced to characterize the lack of a law restricting sellers maximum freedom to sell as they wish and some here still will not acknowledge that is taking seller rights.


Since property ownership is legal, requiring a deed that meets legal standards to be recorded with the county they are already involved and that deed would be worthless if one didn’t have the existence of the force of government to even claim ownership rights.


Your tin foil hat is getting tight. Obviously landowners need lawyers to draw up the legal documents but just what collusion do they have together against a free market? If they are they should be sued for antitrust.


I have laid out the three separate markets that exist and all of them have the power to affect the overall market. If you guys cannot at least acknowledge the crazy that people can do that could damage a developer and neighbors is off the chart you can never understand why others want them. And as the crazy gets worse the covenants have had to become more detailed to combat that crazy. Markets work and no one is manipulating them, they are reacting to crazy.


Here is the actual quote. There is so much ambiguity to it the answer is meaningless.

“Most Americans — 61% — say they would prefer to live in a neighborhood without an HOA; 14% would prefer to live with one, and 24% have no preference or aren't sure.”

It is actually funny that they didn’t get 100% on that question. That is like asking; “would you prefer not to gain weight?“

The exact same people answered several questions that give different insights. The people that live in HOA’s, those that you want to take their right to buy in an HOA have different views than those like you that hate an HOA.

“More Americans believe HOAs have a very or somewhat negative effect on the communities they govern (45%) than a very or somewhat positive effect (21%); 21% say the effect is neutral. People who live in HOA-governed communities have a more optimistic outlook: 47% say HOAs' effect is positive, 27% say it is negative, and 21% say it is neutral.”

Of those who live in an HOA majorities like or even love an HOA.

While many people living in HOA neighborhoods say they would prefer not to, more strongly or somewhat approve (58%) than disapprove (32%) of how the HOA in their neighborhood is governed. And more say they love or like living in a neighborhood with an HOA (54%) than say they hate or dislike it (34%).

And who keeps bringing up that HOA’s are best suited for homes that are close together?

“Americans who live in HOA-governed neighborhoods are more likely than those who don't to say houses in their neighborhood are built close together (74% vs. 54%).”

I have repeatedly said I am glad we all have options but many here, including you, want to take those options away. I’m glad you will never be able to do that as evidenced by the stats in the poll you linked

I don't believe it's Jamil that has tight tinfoil. He's not the one that responds with endless dissertations trying to sway folks minds.

 

[phylodog]

If a seller wants to maintain rights to control property they should maintain ownership. If you don't want a pickup truck within view, own the property within that view, otherwise mind your own ****ing business.

 

[Ingomike]

If a seller wants to maintain rights to control property they should maintain ownership.

Glad you are free to have that opinion.

If you don't want a pickup truck within view, own the property within that view, otherwise mind your own ****ing business.

Why don’t you “otherwise mind your own ****ing business” and allow others the same freedoms you have if they don’t want to see a pickup truck? Why shouldn’t they have that freedom? I don’t personally care if there are pickup trucks, I have had many trucks, but I would never take that freedom from those that do not want to see them to have a neighborhood that does not allow them.

 

[repeter1977]

Glad you are free to have that opinion.


Why don’t you “otherwise mind your own ****ing business” and allow others the same freedoms you have if they don’t want to see a pickup truck? Why shouldn’t they have that freedom? I don’t personally care if there are pickup trucks, I have had many trucks, but I would never take that freedom from those that do not want to see them to have a neighborhood that does not allow them.

Because your freedom ends where other's freedoms begin. It's always been this way. Thus, trying to impose on others freedoms are not the freedom you keep saying, it's literally the opposite, the oppression of freedom.
Everyone is trying to tell you this, but apparently wanting the freedom to be left alone is oppression of Karen's "freedom" to oppress you.

 

[foszoe]

Just in!

King George approves of HOAs.

 

[Ingomike]

Because your freedom ends where other's freedoms begin. It's always been this way. Thus, trying to impose on others freedoms are not the freedom you keep saying, it's literally the opposite, the oppression of freedom.
Everyone is trying to tell you this, but apparently wanting the freedom to be left alone is oppression of Karen's "freedom" to oppress you.

Joe owns land has unbridled freedom.
Joe uses his freedom to put covenants/restrictions and HOA on the land he owns and has unbridled freedom over.
Joe puts land up for sale with covenants/restrictions and HOA.
Bill sees Joes land for sale.
Bill is informed by Joe of the covenants/restrictions and HOA.
Bill has unbridled freedom to buy Joe‘s land with covenants/restrictions and HOA.
Bill has unbridled freedom to NOT buy Joe’s land with covenants/restrictions and HOA.

Bill has no freedom to tell Joe how to sell his land.

You guys are Bill…

 

[foszoe]

Joe owns land has unbridled freedom.
Joe uses his freedom to put covenants/restrictions and HOA on the land he owns and has unbridled freedom over.
Joe puts land up for sale with covenants/restrictions and HOA.
Bill sees Joes land for sale.
Bill is informed by Joe of the covenants/restrictions and HOA.
Bill has unbridled freedom to buy Joe‘s land with covenants/restrictions and HOA.
Bill has unbridled freedom to NOT buy Joe’s land with covenants/restrictions and HOA.

Bill has no freedom to tell Joe how to sell his land.

You guys are Bill…

Joe wants government to infringe further Bill's rights by restricting who he can sell his land to.

You are Joe.

 

[Ingomike]

Joe wants government to infringe further Bill's rights by restricting who he can sell his land to.

You are Joe.

How does Bill have ANY RIGHTS over Joe’s land? He doesn't. The government is not involved in the decision making. Everything in my example is true freedom. The only way Bill gets what you want him to get is by government oppression.


You, wanting to take Joe’s freedom over his land is the infringement…