Why didn't the 'Element of Surprise' help Zimmerman?

[Dragon]

Show me in any of the evidence provided that Zimmerman stopped Trayvon from doing anything.

It will come to light that he approached him and stopped him, why else would he have gotten out of his vehicle? Sure, I am making an assumption but so are you in saying that he didn't.

Never in the history of INGO has it been harder for people to stay on task in a OC/CC argument...

Sorry man, I was answering questions I was asked. But don't you believe there is a lesson to be learned from this situation by all who carry a handgun?

 

[Dragon]

Yep, I am guilty too. kinda weird if you think about it. Usually a thread derails into an OC/CC argument, not the other way around

I would normally stay the same but then again I also choose to stay out of those debates most of the time. I just think the two are very closely intertwined in this case because it's my belief that an unarmed high school kid wouldn't have whooped on ol' GZ had he seen the gun. He probably would've run.

 

[figley]

The premise of this thread, that an openly carried firearm is of more benefit than a concealed firearm, when the person carrying is blindsided with a haymaker, is ridiculous. Considering the fact that he didn't see the threat (poor SA?), he could have been much more easily disarmed.

TF, go on carrying openly, as is your right, but why interject the OC/CC argument into an incident, where it would not have been beneficial, in such an argumentative way? Is it because deep down, OC advocates crave attention?

 

[Titanium_Frost]

anyone OC a Kel-Tec?

My WIFE...

 

[Mr. Habib]

The premise of this thread, that an openly carried firearm is of more benefit than a concealed firearm, when the person carrying is blindsided with a haymaker, is ridiculous. Considering the fact that he didn't see the threat (poor SA?), he could have been much more easily disarmed.

TF, go on carrying openly, as is your right, but why interject the OC/CC argument into an incident, where it would not have been beneficial, in such an argumentative way? Is it because deep down, OC advocates crave attention?

Would that haymaker have been thrown if TM had known that GZ was armed with a handgun? I think not. I still maintain that had GZ been OCing, that this altercation would not have escalated to the point of shoots being fired. TM allegedly attacked GZ because GZ was following him. Had TM known that GZ was armed, it is logical to assume that his actions would have been different. IMO if GZ was able and willing to OC TM would still be alive and GZ would be a free man today.

 

[bobzilla]

Explain to me exactly HOW Zimmerman was defending himself when he was the aggressor? Explain to me how, please. If I approach you and you turn to defend yourself against me, how can I be defending myself against you?

He caused the altercation. He took the aggressive posture by approaching someone he shouldn't have. He got his ass kicked by a 17 year-old because of it. Now he's facing a murder charge for killing someone who was not guilty of any crimes at that time. I'm sick of seeing people talk like Zimmerman did the right thing by shooting that kid while his ass should've been sitting inside of his vehicle waiting for the police to do their job.

I didn't know people could be this stupid. Please STFU if you have nothing of value to say. Obviously you don't give 2 ****s about facts or legalities. So please, stop making yourself look stupid and STFU.

 

[iChokePeople]

In this type of incident (ignoring this PARTICULAR incident and its details), IMHO, OC would be a better choice, if allowed by law. So would a jacket that says "SECURITY" or some such. If you're in that role, going out of your way to perform that kind of job, being conspicuous and official-looking is your best bet, and OCing would fit very well. The whole 'element of surprise' thing as it relates to the OC/CC argument doesn't really play here as you are NOT just an average citizen minding your own business protecting yourself and those in your care. If you're following, confronting, acting official, it's a whole different scenario. Or maybe I'm just too simple to understand how THIS scenario relates to MY carry choices.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Sorry man, I was answering questions I was asked. But don't you believe there is a lesson to be learned from this situation by all who carry a handgun?

That is the point of this thread, to make better informed decisions on why you carry, not to rehash the debate of whether or not GZ is guilty of murder.

I would normally stay the same but then again I also choose to stay out of those debates most of the time. I just think the two are very closely intertwined in this case because it's my belief that an unarmed high school kid wouldn't have whooped on ol' GZ had he seen the gun. He probably would've run.

Exactly the point I wanted to make.

The premise of this thread, that an openly carried firearm is of more benefit than a concealed firearm, when the person carrying is blindsided with a haymaker, is ridiculous. Considering the fact that he didn't see the threat (poor SA?), he could have been much more easily disarmed.

TF, go on carrying openly, as is your right, but why interject the OC/CC argument into an incident, where it would not have been beneficial, in such an argumentative way? Is it because deep down, OC advocates crave attention?

The only thing that is rediculous is closing your mind to lessons learned by others that could save you from having to learn them the hard way.

Am I advocating that everyone should OC 24/7? Of course not. I advocate for those that want to, can. And those that don't wish to, don't have to.

My main grievance here is the tired argument of element of surprise being a tactical advantage. I use this incident to bolster (not to prove) my point that given 1 on 1 aggression CCing holds no advatage over OC, and perhaps there is a chance that OCing would actually be a benefit as a deterrant.

 

[Hayseed_40]

I didn't know people could be this stupid. Please STFU if you have nothing of value to say. Obviously you don't give 2 ****s about facts or legalities. So please, stop making yourself look stupid and STFU.

Seriously, you have been alive 36 years and are just now noticing how stupi people can be?

Other than that - I have nothing of value to add.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Seriously, you have been alive 36 years and are just now noticing how stupi people can be?

Other than that - I have nothing of value to add.

ETA: Is "Stupi" the plural of "Stupid?"

 

[BroadbandBrat]

Show me in any of the evidence provided that Zimmerman stopped Trayvon from doing anything.

Um, he's dead?!?! Oh, too soon??

 

[bobzilla]

Seriously, you have been alive 36 years and are just now noticing how stupi people can be?

Other than that - I have nothing of value to add.

I'vew been an optimist for far too long. I keep HOPING that people really arent this stupid. Sadly I am reminded daily that all the optimism in the world will never make them more intelligent.

 

[bobzilla]

Um, he's dead?!?! Sorry

True, he stopped him from continuing to bash his head into the pavement.

 

[Dragon]

I didn't know people could be this stupid. Please STFU if you have nothing of value to say. Obviously you don't give 2 ****s about facts or legalities. So please, stop making yourself look stupid and STFU.

No, you're right I know absolutely nothing. Formulating my own educated opinions is wrong and I shouldn't do it. Now, please go onto teh webz oh educated internet warrior and show me the ways toward enlightenment.

 

[BroadbandBrat]

I guess we all should expect to get our a$$es kicked if we approach anyone out in public. "Excuse me sir.......WHAM" "I didn't mean to be aggressive I just wanted to know the time."

 

[Hayseed_40]

I'vew been an optimist for far too long. I keep HOPING that people really arent this stupid. Sadly I am reminded daily that all the optimism in the world will never make them more intelligent.

I think I lost hope at an earlier age.

I just look at California to see where we are heading...

 

[The Bubba Effect]

It is hard to say either way whether OC'ing would have helped Zimmerman.

It might have deterred Martin, or Martin might have grabbed the pistol and used it himself since he was evidently able to take control physically early in the fight.

As to guilt or innocence, I do not know the facts of the case. I hope justice is served.

 

[04DarkShadowGT]

I guess we all should expect to get our a$$es kicked if we approach anyone out in public. "Excuse me sir.......WHAM" "I didn't mean to be aggressive I just wanted to know the time."

Yeah because that is totally what happened.

 

[Dragon]

Yeah because that is totally what happened.

I didn't know people could be this stupid. Please STFU if you have nothing of value to say. Obviously you don't give 2 ****s about facts or legalities. So please, stop making yourself look stupid and STFU. lol

 

[Hayseed_40]

It is because of people like TF starting threads like these that we cannot get nice things around here.