What COULD be done?

[actaeon277]

I posted earlier that running was the option I would most likely employ, and I still believe that. I once practiced with knives for a pretty decent period of time and came to the realization that unless one person is incompetent, even the "winner" is likely to bleed out before help arrives. So, even though I still say that an unarmed person (like the victim in the video) should run as their first option, if that option is unavailable to you then you are going to have to decide that you want to live, and nothing else matters.

As far as the video goes, I think it's unlikely you can score a solid hit on the incoming knife arm; it's almost as unlikely that you'll be able to grab it. Rotate the wrists out so the brachial artery isn't exposed, and get inside the strike so the blade hits the outside of the forearm, upper arm or shoulder. Try to clinch with a bear hug that traps his arms to his side above the elbows. Hit him with your incoming head if you can, they bury your teeth in his throat and tear until he stops moving. The carotid is buried about 1 1/2" deep. If you can work your way to it, it can stop the attack in about 8 seconds.

I've never been in a real knife fight, and I hope I never am. I don't know what would work, but if I can't run I'm going to do whatever it takes.

Running may not be an option.
Your exit could be blocked.
You could have loved ones that would be attacked.

 

[Spanky46151]

Not to single you out specifically. . . but . . . .



I don't believe a gun would've made a difference for the guy in the OP's video.



How do you stay 21' away from everyone, every day?

Guys openly brandishing knives shouldn't be too hard...but, if you end up there, your feet work in reverse, too.

 

[RolanNRA]

If someone catches you by surprise theres not much you can do.........That includes a sucker punch. But of course its always better to be armed than not... always be aware of your surroundings

 

[bwframe]

The whole idea behind the thread is that there are things you can do. The difficulty lies in understanding that the most obvious life savers we have may not solve every problem.

The head in the sand approach of "I'm too old, broken down, crippled, etc, to fight so I'll just have to shoot them," doesn't matter when you are bleeding out. Nor does it matter if you have actually gotten off a shot or two that you took the attacker with you. You are still just as dead and a loser of the fight.

A determined attacker with brains may not give any options but to fight hand to hand. There are times when you just cannot possibly draw fast enough or turn and run fast enough. A large amount of gun owners drastically overestimate their ability with a firearm. With all due respect, look at some of the posts in this thread. The first video shows the attacker on the victim in less than a second. NO ONE can access, react and draw that fast.

The real question is whether you choose to allow yourself to be slaughtered? You can blame it on your number being up or walk it back by saying you've lived a good life. Hopefully, that will make a bad ending peaceful. What if by freak chance you happen to have to see a loved one harmed, raped or killed though...

 

[Que]

Burl, you are right. However, if anyone is that close to me and has a knife, I will do all I can to create space... a lot of space. The question is, am I keeping my aging body in physical condition so I'm able to fun if necessary? In the video, the guy was backing up in a way that practically ensured he would end up on the ground after being rushed. If you have to back up, then back pedal instead of slide. Also he did't use his legs (his strongest muscles) in any way to create space after he fell.

There are a lot of maybes, but the most important thing I saw is the guy NEVER fought.

 

[riverman67]

I just watched it again.
Que you are correct this guy did nothing to try and save himself. If you're going to retreat,don't back straight up. Try to get to his outside. If you are going to throw your coat at the attacker,try to block his vision to gain some time and distance. Gain control of the weapon arm even if it means getting cut and then beat,break and bite anything you can to take the fight out of this guy and get away from him.
This kind of attack is the worst because it will likely come from your blind side and you won't even know youre in a fight until youre bleeding and on the ground

 

[Double T]

Why would you use your coat in the first place? ESPECIALLY in the strong hand. My guess is this video is not a "gun" video, but just a self defense video.

If it were a "gun" video rather than a coat in the strong hand it would be a firearm. If someone is attacking you while putting your coat on, you're probably screwed anyway.


Coach's answer was pretty much spot on. As far as fighting is concerned, get your arms in the way. It is MUCH easier to control bleeding on extremities than it is on your vital organs. Even if you can't STOP the attack, get an extremity in the way to block the force of the strike, so the gut strikes won't be as deep.

If you can't get to your firearm, create distance while drawing. It is very hard to explain but you can "cross" step (much like side stepping) and maintain balance while gaining as much distance as possible while remaining squared to the target. If they close that fast, creating distance and drawing may be the only viable option. If someone is hellbent on doing "that" to you, you are going to have to draw. This is where drawing and dryfire comes into play, as well as other disciplines besides trigger control

Very thought provoking. Thanks

 

[Que]

There are a lot of "ifs" in this video, including the fact that many people I know carry at least one firearm and two knives. We can all possibly find ourselves in a situation where someone has gotten the jump on us. The question is what will you do when someone is three feet away with a 9" fixed-blade knife?

Instead of acting like a bull fighter, the guy could have used that leather jacket as a weapon. He could have possibly swung and hit the attacker in the face and ran. Even if he didn't land a lucky strike, the distraction alone could have been the advantage necessary to make an escape or at least change the balance of odds by producing a gun or knife of his own.

 

[IlikeAk's]

Perhaps you could describe your thought process that would have allowed such a thing? Is there a set distance where you draw? Is there something that you look for to tell you a weapon is about to be in play which allows you to preemptively draw your pistol without getting false positives and pointing at regular people on the street? I'm curious.

I see you don't have many posts and I don't want to be "that guy" but in threads like this saying things like "I would have already shot him" are rarely constructive. Just about anything that starts with "I would have" or "I'd just" tends to precede something that not only makes no sense in real life, but is insulting to the actual problem being discussed.

I understand where you are coming from. Perhaps I could have written a more constructive comment. In that scenario I would like to think that the bad guy was already walking toward me with the knife out like in the video but farther away, i fdoing this I would have already told him to stop twice. The second time obviously with a gun pointed at him. If then he still continued toward me I would have shot him. Now if he attacked at the distance where the video started I guess I could run but in reality I don’t think my reaction time is that quick to even do that much less put up a defense

 

[IlikeAk's]

Wow, you must be pretty fast on the draw, partner.

I'm also know as Quick Draw McGraw

 

[iChokePeople]

This is a good discussion.

 

[jdhaines]

I understand where you are coming from. Perhaps I could have written a more constructive comment. In that scenario I would like to think that the bad guy was already walking toward me with the knife out like in the video but farther away, i fdoing this I would have already told him to stop twice. The second time obviously with a gun pointed at him. If then he still continued toward me I would have shot him. Now if he attacked at the distance where the video started I guess I could run but in reality I don’t think my reaction time is that quick to even do that much less put up a defense

Cool man. I wasn't trying to bust your balls, just making sure you're thinking through these things with the amount of seriousness they deserve. Planning through these types of things in our heads during the day while we're daydreaming and such can really help things out. X distance away...use verbal get gun out. That makes sense...as long as you continue to plan for other situations. I really like the idea of having a default. There are many out there, but it makes sense to have a position trained to the point of reflex where you can fall back in an unexpected strike.

For more info, read this informative document put together by Lee Morrison who came up previously.

http://www.urbancombatives.com/defaultart.htm

I personally use the "Southnarc" method of default only because he was the first to introduce the idea to me personally. I know high level guys using many of the others with good success. I also use Crazy Monkey as my striking system so it could look like that one depending on if I see we are going to be striking or I'm just caught off guard.

The idea of the default is interlocked with the idea of a the fence by codified by Geoff Thompson and his short videos on Youtube are worth watching. Paul Gomez has a video on this. No matter which one you choose, have a way to keep your hands up and options open while interacting with someone. Also have a solid default position to go to when things go bad quickly to give you a chance of staying upright and conscious.

It really can take some stress off of the whole situation when you have a goto. Every week during our training group I make sure I hit the default at least 10 times. My default includes a hard forward driving step into the other guy. Certainly not ideal for a knife attack. Fairly ideal for a sweeping haymaker. Somewhere in between on the others. A downside would be I could get a knife stuck under my default into my ribs. If I can see its a knife attack maybe I can do something more fitting...but if I can't I default. Now that I have that down I can work on other things while this goes on maintenance only mode.

You must have dominant positioning before accessing your own weapons if you want to have any chance of deploying it successfully. To get dominant positioning requires unarmed fighting skills.

And because I was posting at the same time...this quote should be in bold flashing letters. One of the biggest things that I've been told, didn't believe, then trained it over and over, and realized DAMN...that's really true.

I'm not speaking for AD Marc when I say this...but I'll add this also counts for launching dirty tactics (eyes, groin, etc) just as much as it does for deploying weapons. Dominant positioning is everything.

 

[AD Marc]

Running has the potential to be the worst solution to this problem. Here is why:

1) how do you know you are faster than him?

You don't, the way you find out you are not is when you get stabbed in the back. Skinny crackheads are fast.

2) how do you know you can run further than him?

If you can't outrun him, you now have to fight winded. If it gives you the time to access your weapon, great, but how many people have trained accessing their gun in a full sprint? What about shooting during strenuous physical activity? Also, when you wheel around gun in hand, he's going to crash right into you and now your are in a zero distance encounter where the gun offers you no advantage and actually a few disadvantages compared to the knife.

3) how did you know he had a knife in the first place?

Most stabbings don't start with a guy standing 21 feet away, drawing a knife and screaming "I have a knife, and now I'm going to stab you with it!" Most often the knife is concealed until they are right on top of you (managing unknown contacts is a different discussion for a different day). Almost everyone I've talked to that survived a knife attack did not see the knife and thought they were getting punched. It wasn't until the attack was over and they felt dizzy or noticed they were bleeding heavily did it register. Training a seperate response for a knife attack versus any other sort of attack is simply not realistic.

This also applies to using counter-knife techniques from xyz martial arts. They don't work unless you know a knife is in play, and you probably won't

So what do you do?

-Cover up your vital areas

The same places you don't want to be punched are the places you don't want to get stabbed

-Avoid, deflect or redirect incoming attacks.

Same as if someone is throwing punches at you, we want to get hit as little as possible.

-Finish the fight quickly and decisively

Regardless of the weapon, the shorter the attack the less damage we take. Strike hard, fast and accurate.

-Recognize that accessing a weapon of your own might not be the best option.

You are taking one of the hands you were using to defend yourself away and draws are easily intercepted at contact distance. You must have dominant positioning before accessing your own weapons if you want to have any chance of deploying it successfully. To get dominant positioning requires unarmed fighting skills.

Some people may not want to hear these realities because training to win in a scenario such as this one does not fit their lifestyle. They can take comfort in the fact that we live in a relatively safe and civilized country and will likely go our entire lives without having to defend ourselves from a committed attacker with a knife. Do not fool oneself into thinking you could win such an encouter without training for it by any mechanism other than luck.

Y'all just got some free counter-knife training advice.

 

[AD Marc]

I'm not speaking for AD Marc when I say this...but I'll add this also counts for launching dirty tactics (eyes, groin, etc) just as much as it does for deploying weapons. If dominant positioning is everything.

Pretty much spot on. Trying to gouge someone's eyes out from a non dominant position generally just serves as a reminder to your adversary that they too can gouge eyes.

Good example, I had been told by someone at work that I shouldn't wear my lapel mic a certain way because someone could grab the cord. I asked them to show me. They grabbed the cord and I smacked them lightly on the side of the head. "no, seriously, show me". They grabbed the cord, this time more apprehensive, and I smacked them again.

Please, do me a big favor and if we are ever fighting, take one of your hands out of the fight to do something ineffectual.

 

[iChokePeople]

I'm not going to get much into the tactics and techniques part, but another key part in this kind of thing is MINDSET. You have to be able to switch on and deal with the level of aggression and violence coming at you, and you have to be able to do it NOW. You have to have already resolved to NEVER QUIT. Most knife injuries are not immediately lethal. You have to switch on, kill the ***********(s) with the knife/knives, and get immediate medical help. Most people who die from stabbings do not die from the first or second or third wound, they die because they didn't fight back or quit.

Now I know, some of you will freak because I said to kill the guy with the knife -- if that was your first reaction, I hope it never happens to you, because the guy with the knife intends to KILL YOU. Oh, by the way, chances are he's not alone. Predators tend to like to work in packs.

 

[96firephoenix]

throw the coat at his face to distract him, then run.

 

[Que]

I'm not going to get much into the tactics and techniques part, but another key part in this kind of thing is MINDSET. You have to be able to switch on and deal with the level of aggression and violence coming at you, and you have to be able to do it NOW. You have to have already resolved to NEVER QUIT. Most knife injuries are not immediately lethal. You have to switch on, kill the ***********(s) with the knife/knives, and get immediate medical help. Most people who die from stabbings do not die from the first or second or third wound, they die because they didn't fight back or quit.

Now I know, some of you will freak because I said to kill the guy with the knife -- if that was your first reaction, I hope it never happens to you, because the guy with the knife intends to KILL YOU.

You made my point much better than I did. The guy in the video was an empty pair of pants. I know it was just a demonstration and they couldn't show him throwing haymakers and all, but the fact is, the will to live and FIGHT should never be less than the attackers will to succeed in his goal.

 

[rockhopper46038]

I'm not going to get much into the tactics and techniques part, but another key part in this kind of thing is MINDSET. You have to be able to switch on and deal with the level of aggression and violence coming at you, and you have to be able to do it NOW. You have to have already resolved to NEVER QUIT. Most knife injuries are not immediately lethal. You have to switch on, kill the ***********(s) with the knife/knives, and get immediate medical help. Most people who die from stabbings do not die from the first or second or third wound, they die because they didn't fight back or quit.

Now I know, some of you will freak because I said to kill the guy with the knife -- if that was your first reaction, I hope it never happens to you, because the guy with the knife intends to KILL YOU. Oh, by the way, chances are he's not alone. Predators tend to like to work in packs.

Damn straight.

 

[Que]

Running has the potential to be the worst solution to this problem. Here is why:

1) how do you know you are faster than him?

You don't, the way you find out you are not is when you get stabbed in the back. Skinny crackheads are fast.

2) how do you know you can run further than him?

If you can't outrun him, you now have to fight winded. If it gives you the time to access your weapon, great, but how many people have trained accessing their gun in a full sprint? What about shooting during strenuous physical activity? Also, when you wheel around gun in hand, he's going to crash right into you and now your are in a zero distance encounter where the gun offers you no advantage and actually a few disadvantages compared to the knife.

Y'all just got some free counter-knife training advice.

I'm no personal defense trainer and have absolutely no experience with knife fighting, but wouldn't taking the possibility of running away -- because I may be slower than the attacker -- be similar to not fighting because he may be stronger? I definitely get what you are saying when we introduce the possibility of getting stabbed in the back. However, how would I know the guy would even attempt to chase me?

 

[jdhaines]

I know it was just a demonstration and they couldn't show him throwing haymakers and all...

This reminds me of one more thing. If you are being taught techniques...keep in mind that showing you a technique with a mock attack is not the same as seeing it for real. A smart guy on another forum came up with a great way to deal with this. He likes to ask the instructor "do you want a simulated mock attack...or a real attack?" This puts all the cards on the table. If the person teaching wants a mock attack to demonstrate...that is perfectly acceptable, but we all want to be clear what it is. If he says a real attack and his technique is useless, then that also is something to know and experience.

Going slow and learning/teaching is certainly part of the process. But don't let yourself jump on the bandwagon that what you are seeing is high speed and super effective just because every time a student threw a 1/4 speed looping haymaker the instructor wrapped him up like a pretzel.