What COULD be done?

[iChokePeople]

To be maybe a little more clear, it's not that I doubt the value of [good/some] FoF -- I think it can be a very good thing. I'm just... A little more cautious about some of its limitations and potential dangers, I guess. In every FoF scenario I've ever played, people behave differently than they would in real life. Could you create scenarios that take you closer and closer? Sure, yes. IMHO, they would have to involve a significant amount of pain to attempt to recreate real aversion to being shot or stabbed. They would work much better for some than for others, as some couldn't distance themselves from the knowledge that it's a game and they WILL go home tonight. I'm leery of the overconfidence or misplaced confidence that can come from successful completion of FoF. It doesn't HAVE to, but the instructor has to position it correctly and "keep it real" and prevent that.

I'm sure josh has seen the same things I see in unarmed training or with blades, sticks, etc -- there are different "levels of realism". What a guy will do against padded sticks is not the same as what he'll do against real ones. Foam knives, then hard plastic or steel trainers. Newer guys survive a round of 100% with foam sticks or ***** mittens and feel good, rightly so, but get a whole new level of learning when you put on helmets and use rattan.

Anyway, too much to really go into here, we can do it over pizza and cool beverages sometime, just wanted to say I'm actually a fan of FoF, intend to do more this year, etc, just not quite as enamored as some.

ETA: I'm genuinely anxious to try one of shay's FoF classes, as he has a great reputation for drawing the student into the scenario, making it real, and IMHO that's HUGE in creating a successful FoF.

 

[bwframe]

Speaking of FOF, where has Shay been?

Very busy defending Yeager.

Threads like these can really reveal the need for Force on Force training. There are so many answers here that make me cringe. What is worse than doing nothing? Quite possibly doing the wrong thing!

Backing away? Good luck with that. It is shown time ofter time in FOF how this is a horible strategy against a aggressive driving attack. Creating distance is real easy to say, not so easy to do.

Running away? Well, maybe, if you know you are faster. Not only fast enough to get away, but fast enough to turn and get away. A knife in the back doesn't end up being a whole lot better than a knife in the front.

Speed Rock? haha, let me know how that goes for you.

He won't ever get that close to me! Sure, you never stand in a line? Your attention never wanders? Never distracted?

While my friend Chokey is a little doubtful of FOF because it is not the real thing, it is as close to the real thing as most people will get unless the thing they are training for really happens. For all of those who have answered with what they would do, have you tried it? Under resistance? Have you had a guy come at you like in the first video? Like Josh says, once you get the moves down you have to increase the intensity and violence until you get it approaching the real deal. It is amazing how much stuff falls apart then. Nothing may work perfectly under every situation, but you sure will be better able to stay in the fight if you have already seen what is happening to you and have some idea of what really works. Not just what you have visuallized you would do or what someone on the net would do.

I agree that FOF is not real. It does force you to think of alternate plans though. A lot of folks have real trouble with the idea that they cannot "win" every scenario. The deck is stacked against them. FOF humbles, taking you out of your winning mindset to hopefully a surviving one.

Learning that drawing and running is not 100% is golden information that can often only be realized when tried over and over.

 

[jdhaines]

I'm only one person with one experience, but I can say that I absolutely "went real" full 100% adrenaline dump on more than half of shay's scenarios. It did not allow fighting physically, but the physical reactions were there. I didn't sleep right for a week. Hands shaking for more than a day. Insatiable hunger. Mentally exhausted, physically wired...then 2 hours later they would switch in this horrible dance that felt like drugs were keeping me awake while I wanted to sleep...then drugs drying to make me sleep while I wanted to be awake.

FoF can work really well. Other FoF haven't pushed the adrenaline like Shay's classes...but have pushed to the limit in other aspects regarding speed with full protective gear. Take off the gear, use metal weapon drones and go slowly on access. It takes a few rounds with different types but you can approximate each part.

 

[iChokePeople]

I'm only one person with one experience, but I can say that I absolutely "went real" full 100% adrenaline dump on more than half of shay's scenarios. It did not allow fighting physically, but the physical reactions were there. I didn't sleep right for a week. Hands shaking for more than a day. Insatiable hunger. Mentally exhausted, physically wired...then 2 hours later they would switch in this horrible dance that felt like drugs were keeping me awake while I wanted to sleep...then drugs drying to make me sleep while I wanted to be awake.

.

Shay always gets reviews like that, which is why I think I need to try his classes.

 

[Glock21]

I'd suggest two things with the video...both are far from great, but about all I could do under the circumstances.

1. When he launches, don't evade or back up. Launch into right back into him and do your best to trap the blade. You will most likely be cut. But there is something to be said for fierce counter attack - once you know the fight is on, turn aggressive and go on the offence.

2. Foot and leg kick straight out - kind of a kick, but more of a push him away. You may get a blade into the leg...oh well. You may have to do it multiple times, but you're buying time. You're keeping the blade away from your vitals and perhaps deploying your own weapon or forming a plan B.

Hardly great options, but for most of us who have limited abilites and will never be Steve Tarani, they are at least things that can be practiced.

 

[bwframe]

Riverman67 and I took a mild run at this drill in a dim parking lot last evening.

A few observations;
- The theory of moving the hand given (right hand) and getting outside worked even better than expected. Little chance for that big knife getting you the first stroke when controlling the opposite arm/side/direction. A fast follow of elbow to head with a push off gained distance in a good direction to go to gun.

- The jacket thrown at face or feet caused distraction to attacker that could be taken advantage of. It had to be tied to a blocking motion or strike though or attacker could proceed on as if fighting blind, trying to lock you up and stab, stab, stab.

- Didn't think about it 'till the drive home, but it would have been cool to try some light stuff. How much of a deterrent would a few hundred lumens be? How lighting up the attacker then moving would have effected things? While you cannot draw your gun and point at every person around, you can light them up way out, without repercussion...

 

[iChokePeople]

Riverman67 and I took a mild run at this drill in a dim parking lot last evening.

- Didn't think about it 'till the drive home, but it would have been cool to try some light stuff. How much of a deterrent would a few hundred lumens be? How lighting up the attacker then moving would have effected things? While you cannot draw your gun and point at every person around, you can light them up way out, without repercussion...

One of the biggest reasons I carry a light.

Kudos for going out and trying it.

 

[rhino]

One reason why I keep a light in my hand when I'm outside after dark.

 

[ruger1800]

Stay calm so the blood doesnt pump out of your wounds as fast.

 

[bwframe]

Similar to the "panic push," eyes slamming shut from an intense light "take a picture" of what was last seen, correct? Going on this, a light up and move strategy should work?

 

[iChokePeople]

Similar to the "panic push," eyes slamming shut from an intense light "take a picture" of what was last seen, correct? Going on this a light up and move strategy should work?

Yes. Put it in their eyes and move, preferably not straight back. Straight FORWARD might be a great option sometimes... If you've never had 740 lumens in your low-light-adjusted eyes, try it. For most people, it's a problem for a few seconds, and a few seconds just might be enough. In the op vid, lights to the eyes, move quickly to your (assuming you are the "victim") 11 o'clock, and do work. Or that would be MY Monday morning QB choice of course of action for that vid, anyway. At that point I could either attack or run.

 

[bwframe]

Yes. Put it in their eyes and move, preferably not straight back. Straight FORWARD might be a great option sometimes... If you've never had 740 lumens in your low-light-adjusted eyes, try it. For most people, it's a problem for a few seconds, and a few seconds just might be enough. In the op vid, lights to the eyes, move quickly to your (assuming you are the "victim") 11 o'clock, and do work. Or that would be MY Monday morning QB choice of course of action for that vid, anyway. At that point I could either attack or run.

To go on that, lighting up the eyes before the attack. Light them up, let off, move while hand goes to gun. Light them up again, draw if necessary.

 

[iChokePeople]

To go on that, lighting up the eyes before the attack. Light them up, let off, move while hand goes to gun. Light them up again, draw if necessary.

100% agree. And every time he turns to try to find me and see me, he gets the light again.

 

[Project972]

i do not like knives.

 

[cedartop]

i do not like knives.

I do, but I don't like getting cut by them.