What COULD be done?

[cedartop]

I'm going to go with shoot the guy with the knife until he quits trying to get up or you run our of bullets, then deal with your knife wounds and call 911 for your knife wounds, hoping you don't die from your knife wounds because there are going to be knife wounds.


A more perfect response might be to try to circle away while drawing and firing, but based on my limited level of competency, I think shooting the hell out of the guy would be a good first step for me.

Good luck getting your gun out in that situation. This is what force on force is about people. We as well as others take this stuff and run it in dynamic scenarios to see what works, or at least what keeps you alive. You don't want the first time something like this happens to you to be for real. Our 0-5 ft pistol gunfighting deals almost exclusively with these type of situations. A gun may come into play, but only after you have either wrapped him up, created distance, or flanked him. I have seen these types of attacks in prison, and even been on the recieving end. It is not pretty, even less so if you haven't prepared. Just watching a video on it is not being prepared.

 

[jdhaines]

I agree with Mike above. If this isn't what you think of when you hear "he has a knife, knife attack, or stabbed" then it's good you're correcting your understanding. In our training group when we work knife stuff it's like this. If we try to learn something simple like what Mercop was showing, then we'll slow it down...but then we right away start increasing resistance and speed. Learn a technique then bump the resistance and you see how it gets sloppy and messy but you can still pull off the technique (if its a good solid technique). Maybe when you first learn you get it 1 out of 5 times and get mowed down and stabbed the other 4. As we keep training maybe you can get it 4 out of 5 times.

Other good ideas: Die less Often with Suarez/Crafty from Dog Brothers. Its simple and I like it. ISR matrix has knife stuff. RedZone has some really solid knife work. It's supported by some really high level guys who I've seen work this stuff in person. The founder of the system is also a high level instructor in CMD which is the striking system we use in our group. It's also another very simple very functional piece of the puzzle which is designed for this all out full on aggression. A red zone class is on my short list. If you watch this video, you can see the fundamentals at work. It seems to be based on greco wrestling which is something we use for our close-in standing clinch / control situations.

Knives are scary, you'll likely get cut at least some, but it isn't a lost cause. Solid training with full resistance will get you in a position to be more effective at dealing with the threat. Maybe not 100%...but drawing your gun against a guy doing the prison shuffle on you is not the way to win anything. If you don't believe it, stop by a training group. Grab a knife like a Nok trainer that allows full slicing/stabbing, throw on a cup and a mouth guard and try it with blue guns. Every time I would get gun focused and work the draw and ignore the crazy ape with the knife...I'd get stabbed to death.

 

[Coach]

I'll bite.

1) Where the video opens the **** has already hit the fan. Where was the situational awareness. He is too close and where were the verbal commands of back off, leave me alone, stop and so forth. Why are you not backing away trying to gain distance, or flat out hauling ass? But he is too close of getting the gun in play first.

2) I am not a big knife guy. I know few if any knife techniques. But I have been involved in wrestling since 1983. If that coat is to trap the knife use it to do so or get rid of the thing. Holding on to that coat while someone is stabbing the living **** out of you is stupid, but probably a natural reaction because you will likely be clinching your fists like crazy. Get a hold of that knife hand at the wrist asap. If he gets a stab in with it get it then, and don't let there be a second one. Catching it coming in with a block the first time would be better, but this little bastard is quick.

3) Once contact was made I would close the gap completely and control his knife hand. By closing the gap I can defend against strikes. I would get an under hook and throw him by keeping a hold of his knife and and getting behind him. If I am successful here I pick him up and drop him on his head. Than I get my distance and draw my gun.

4) If I cannot get him thrown by I have to get control of that knife hand and find a way to smash him in the face with a head butt, elbow, heel of the palm of the hand, a knee would be the best option if I can get him bent over enough. Everyone has a plan until they get smashed in the face.

I realize all of this is easy to type and tough to do. Not trying to present myself as a knife fight expert but I have been in a lot of wrestling matches and fights and hand to hand I do know a few things about.

 

[cedartop]

I'll bite.

1) Where the video opens the **** has already hit the fan. Where was the situational awareness. He is too close and where were the verbal commands of back off, leave me alone, stop and so forth. Why are you not backing away trying to gain distance, or flat out hauling ass? But he is too close of getting the gun in play first.

2) I am not a big knife guy. I know few if any knife techniques. But I have been involved in wrestling since 1983. If that coat is to trap the knife use it to do so or get rid of the thing. Holding on to that coat while someone is stabbing the living **** out of you is stupid, but probably a natural reaction because you will likely be clinching your fists like crazy. Get a hold of that knife hand at the wrist asap. If he gets a stab in with it get it then, and don't let there be a second one. Catching it coming in with a block the first time would be better, but this little bastard is quick.

3) Once contact was made I would close the gap completely and control his knife hand. By closing the gap I can defend against strikes. I would get an under hook and throw him by keeping a hold of his knife and and getting behind him. If I am successful here I pick him up and drop him on his head. Than I get my distance and draw my gun.

4) If I cannot get him thrown by I have to get control of that knife hand and find a way to smash him in the face with a head butt, elbow, heel of the palm of the hand, a knee would be the best option if I can get him bent over enough. Everyone has a plan until they get smashed in the face.

I realize all of this is easy to type and tough to do. Not trying to present myself as a knife fight expert but I have been in a lot of wrestling matches and fights and hand to hand I do know a few things about.

For being a self-proclaimed non expert, you are certainly on the right track Coach.

 

[AD Marc]

The problem with training a specialized response to a knife attack is that you probably will not know a knife is in play until after the fact. As such, the best response needs to be the same as the response to someone attacking you without a knife in a similar manner. Avoid/deflect incoming attacks as well as you can and put them away quickly with hard, fast and accurate striking.

 

[Spanky46151]

Always carry and observe the 21' rule.

 

[esrice]

Not to single you out specifically. . . but . . . .

Always carry

I don't believe a gun would've made a difference for the guy in the OP's video.

and observe the 21' rule.

How do you stay 21' away from everyone, every day?

 

[bwframe]

Rush the attacker. It is the last thing they expect to have happen. To go along with the whole OODA loop thing, you block their slowed down strikes halfway.

Stop the 1st vid at 1 second. The attacker gives you his non weapon hand. Get outside of this arm and he cannot readily land blows with the weapon hand.

 

[ol' Huff]

I have seen TBE move in h2h situations and he has martial arts experience, he would have had a chance to draw and bust him.

you are probably going to get cut.

Coach is right in his assessment. This is exactly what my judo sensei suggests and what certain judo/jujitsu throws like tomoe nage, ipon seonage, or suri komi goshi are for. Criticize as you will, but the Japanese were training for this specific eventuality hundreds of years ago and the ways to mitigate it are out there and waiting to be trained in. I am certain that the practicing martial artists who saw this video thought, "That's not what I would do. I would Captain Kirk that guy's tail."

He is quick, but he didn't teleport there, and a little awareness and technique work well against speed and strength.

 

[Que]

Every time I take my children to their dojo I am amazed by the things they are taught. My children are VERY good and I'm further amazed that neither of them ever use their skills outside of the dojo. My daughter broke me down one night and I could do nothing about it.

I would definitely suspect that someone trained in martial arts would have a better chance of surviving this kind of attack as opposed to someone without that particular skill.

 

[IlikeAk's]

I would have already shot him before he got that close. But from where the video began, throw my jacket at him and either shoot or run like H$*%

 

[jdhaines]

I would have already shot him before he got that close. But from where the video began, throw my jacket at him and either shoot or run like H$*%

Perhaps you could describe your thought process that would have allowed such a thing? Is there a set distance where you draw? Is there something that you look for to tell you a weapon is about to be in play which allows you to preemptively draw your pistol without getting false positives and pointing at regular people on the street? I'm curious.

I see you don't have many posts and I don't want to be "that guy" but in threads like this saying things like "I would have already shot him" are rarely constructive. Just about anything that starts with "I would have" or "I'd just" tends to precede something that not only makes no sense in real life, but is insulting to the actual problem being discussed.

 

[Que]

I would have already shot him before he got that close. But from where the video began, throw my jacket at him and either shoot or run like H$*%

Wow, you must be pretty fast on the draw, partner.

 

[ddavidson]

My daughter broke me down one night and I could do nothing about it.

Ah, so the explanation for your "twitch" in your videos comes out!

 

[Que]

Ah, so the explanation for your "twitch" in your videos comes out!

 

[chtheo]

IF it goes down just like that....Draw your gun, pull your attacker close, as tight as you can, pull the trigger and don't stop, then pray that he dies from bullet wounds before you die from stab wounds.

 

[actaeon277]

I would bleed on him. And let him worry about karma for the rest of his life.

 

[rhino]

When I was a lot stronger, both legs worked well, and I was a lot more aggressive, I had more options for such things. Now, if I don't see it coming, I'm going to get cut, potentially a lot worse. Whether or not I still have the emotional and mental drive to push into the guy and do what I need to do is something I won't know until after it happens. It also probably depends on how aware I am of being cut/stabbed. I've only been cut, never stabbed, but I didn't know it until afterward, which was good.

 

[downrange72]

When I was a lot stronger, both legs worked well, and I was a lot more aggressive, I had more options for such things. Now, if I don't see it coming, I'm going to get cut, potentially a lot worse. Whether or not I still have the emotional and mental drive to push into the guy and do what I need to do is something I won't know until after it happens. It also probably depends on how aware I am of being cut/stabbed. I've only been cut, never stabbed, but I didn't know it until afterward, which was good.

Being cut by your mom sucks! Doesn't it

I'm a complete rookie, but couldn't the coat have been thrown in the direction of his face to

1. Block his vision?

2. Break the loop?

In a fof drill I through my keys up in the air and the "attacker" stopped what he was doing...he received to air soft pellets in the chest...


Just throwing it out there

 

[rockhopper46038]

I posted earlier that running was the option I would most likely employ, and I still believe that. I once practiced with knives for a pretty decent period of time and came to the realization that unless one person is incompetent, even the "winner" is likely to bleed out before help arrives. So, even though I still say that an unarmed person (like the victim in the video) should run as their first option, if that option is unavailable to you then you are going to have to decide that you want to live, and nothing else matters.

As far as the video goes, I think it's unlikely you can score a solid hit on the incoming knife arm; it's almost as unlikely that you'll be able to grab it. Rotate the wrists out so the brachial artery isn't exposed, and get inside the strike so the blade hits the outside of the forearm, upper arm or shoulder. Try to clinch with a bear hug that traps his arms to his side above the elbows. Hit him with your incoming head if you can, they bury your teeth in his throat and tear until he stops moving. The carotid is buried about 1 1/2" deep. If you can work your way to it, it can stop the attack in about 8 seconds.

I've never been in a real knife fight, and I hope I never am. I don't know what would work, but if I can't run I'm going to do whatever it takes.