Waterboarding

[turnandshoot4]

I would like to see the paper where that is policy and not a local leo training tool.

Even if it is a leo training tool that is scary enough.

 

[scooter75]

The Healthy man does not torture others - generally it is the tortured who turn into torturers.

Carl Jung

 

[Bill of Rights]

Do you not see that the world is getting worse everyday?

You said, "However much we might wish for a "better way" has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not such a way exists.".

So, do we simply carry on the policy that is not working?
The change must begin somewhere! There has to be the way to bring about peace
to this world without the blood shed.

In my opnion, appealing to emotion is by far the better solution than using tanks and missiles to coerce the submission.

BTW, when I say 'we', it is refering to the humanity in general.

Let's cut this down to a simple explanation:

You point a gun at me and demand I give you something... perhaps a watch and wallet... I have three choices. I can appeal to your sense of decency, I can give you what you want, or I can wait for your attention to turn elsewhere, dive at you with the full intention of ripping your head off and ******** down your neck-literally.

Of those three, my analysis is as follows:

1) Appeal to your sense of decency: Good luck with that. If you had a sense of decency, you wouldn't point a gun at someone with the intention of robbing them or worse. Fail.

2) Give you what you want: This serves only to encourage you to go and do likewise to someone else, perhaps someone less able to resist you. Perhaps someone important to me. Fail.

3) Attack without reservation or quarter: You've shown no concern for my well-being and in fact, would probably benefit from my demise, leaving no one to identify you. I am literally in a fight for my life, and only one of us has a chance of ending this battle without a toe tag. We might both, but by threatening me, you've decided that one of us is going to at the very least be hurt, possibly dead at the end of the day. It's my job to make sure it's not me. Possible win.

The same rules apply to nations. We got a big black eye a little over seven years ago. The guy we are told was behind the "punch" cares nothing for diplomacy. He wants America destroyed or enslaved.

You going to fasten the collar around your own neck for him or just let him kill you? Either will bring "peace". Your only other option is to fight.

Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace-- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!

Or if Patrick Henry doesn't make it clear, perhaps Samuel Adams will:

“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude than the animating contest of freedom, — go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!”

Blessings,
B

 

[CarmelHP]

I do not know if I have been wire tapped, I may have been. The government doesn't have to tell me. Or a judge. Or anyone else for that matter.

That's compelling, except it's not true, and never has been.

 

[Crystalship1]

I am considered a terroist due to my constant references to the constitution.

As a terrorist I can be waterboarded. (the reason for this thread)

As a terrorist I can have my phone calls taped without a warrant.

I can go on. If we lose these rights together we lose them as individuals.

Well..... after reading all your recent responses.... I think I've got my answer. Thanks!!!

 

[turnandshoot4]

Well..... after reading all your recent responses.... I think I've got my answer. Thanks!!!

Aww, come on now. Share please

 

[scooter75]

Should any American soldier be so base and infamous as to injure any [prisoner]. . . I do most earnestly enjoin you to bring him to such severe and exemplary punishment as the enormity of the crime may require. Should it extend to death itself, it will not be disproportional to its guilt at such a time and in such a cause... for by such conduct they bring shame, disgrace and ruin to themselves and their country."
-- George Washington, charge to the Northern Expeditionary Force, Sept. 14, 1775


I know I know that in the original President Washington when he says [Prisoner] he is refering to Canadians and Indians. I believe he is trying not to make more enemies on the home front but what does the quote mean if you replace Canadians and Indians with Iraq and Iraqis?

 

[turnandshoot4]

That's compelling, except it's not true, and never has been.

What are "roving wiretaps" then?

 

[turnandshoot4]

Should any American soldier be so base and infamous as to injure any [prisoner]. . . I do most earnestly enjoin you to bring him to such severe and exemplary punishment as the enormity of the crime may require. Should it extend to death itself, it will not be disproportional to its guilt at such a time and in such a cause... for by such conduct they bring shame, disgrace and ruin to themselves and their country."
-- George Washington, charge to the Northern Expeditionary Force, Sept. 14, 1775


I know I know that in the original President Washington when he says [Prisoner] he is refering to Canadians and Indians. I believe he is trying not to make more enemies on the home front but what does the quote mean if you replace Canadians and Indians with Iraq and Iraqis?

I do believe that it will bring more war.

 

[Drail]

Does anyone really believe that useful intel can be gained by any kind of torture whether the people approve of it or not? Especially when we're talking about insane people?

 

[Michiana]

Suggestion

[quote I would like to be that voice for those who lose their rights. Even though I have not lost them personally, I will not stand by as others lose theirs.[/quote]

Four years in the military would do you a lot of good and maybe you will come to appreciate this country we live in and all the freedoms we have today.

 

[dburkhead]

Should any American soldier be so base and infamous as to injure any [prisoner]. . . I do most earnestly enjoin you to bring him to such severe and exemplary punishment as the enormity of the crime may require. Should it extend to death itself, it will not be disproportional to its guilt at such a time and in such a cause... for by such conduct they bring shame, disgrace and ruin to themselves and their country."
-- George Washington, charge to the Northern Expeditionary Force, Sept. 14, 1775


I know I know that in the original President Washington when he says [Prisoner] he is refering to Canadians and Indians. I believe he is trying not to make more enemies on the home front but what does the quote mean if you replace Canadians and Indians with Iraq and Iraqis?

In general Iraq and Iraqis perhaps. Unlawful combatants? Nope. Both sides in the Revolutionary War found no trouble executing spies (the "unlawful combatants" of the day) out of hand. Thus the "prisoners" mentioned in the above quote clearly was a different class from unlawful combatants.

The nice little sound-bites, and quotes which don't include the whole picture or the full complexity of any intelligent persons actual beliefs don't really bring anything much to the discussion.

It appears that the approach is that "Washington said, therefore...." Therefore nothing. I bow to no one in my respect for the Founding Fathers, but they were human, they were fallible (recognizing, these, leads to increased respect rather than the reverse) and their statements and claims are not someone immune from critical appraisal ("critical" in the sense of "close scrutiny" rather than necessarily "disapproval"), especially since they were men who had remarkably deep and subtle views of the world which cannot, generally be encompassed in a short quote.

 

[SirRealism]

It appears that the approach is that "Washington said, therefore...." Therefore nothing. I bow to no one in my respect for the Founding Fathers, but they were human, they were fallible (recognizing, these, leads to increased respect rather than the reverse) and their statements and claims are not someone immune from critical appraisal ("critical" in the sense of "close scrutiny" rather than necessarily "disapproval"), especially since they were men who had remarkably deep and subtle views of the world which cannot, generally be encompassed in a short quote.

Agreed. Further, Washington employed fighting techniques which were seen as unseemly by British soldiers (who wished their enemies would assault them in orderly ranks, like civilized "professional" soldiers).

I hold the Founding Fathers in the utmost regard. But we can't quote them verbatim and expect that they wouldn't adapt to the circumstances.

 

[Michiana]

Who said they were insane?

Does anyone really believe that useful intel can be gained by any kind of torture whether the people approve of it or not? Especially when we're talking about insane people?

Fanatical and radicals are not necessary insane so it should work on them. Probably has and saved a lot of American lives we might never hear about.

 

[dburkhead]

Even if it is a leo training tool that is scary enough.

The paper in question didn't say "these people are terrorists." What it did was list some common factors that many terrorists have. Things to watch for in building a picture on whether someone merits closer scrutiny or not.

Frankly, we've lost more freedoms to attempts to be "fair" than anything else since 9/11/01. To avoid "profiling" we're in a world where 80 year old Medal of Honor winners are harassed because somebody thinks The Medal might be used as a weapon. For that matter, much as I dislike Al Gore, there is really no reason to subject him to any, let alone extra, security on entering the "secure area" of an airport. (Both of the above actually happened, BTW.) But we can't give the impression that we're singling out Abdul Mohammed al Jihad and his carry on bag full of dinner candles (the kind for those romantic "candlelight dinners") and whatever might be concealed under the wax. But we've got to be "fair." We can't "discriminate." So instead of concentrating on those who historically have been most likely to actually commit terrorist attacks, we make sure to hassle everybody--thus diluting the effort, costing more money (which means more taxes, higher airline fees, and more of my time spent working to pay for that crap rather than for the crap I want to pay for--like more guns and ammo). But it's "fair."

Well, life isn't fair (like death is going to give you some great advantage?) and I really wish people would stop trying to pretend it was.

 

[scooter75]

All men are fallible...I agree with that. The quote posted has been bastardized I agree but I still think it has meaning. Still think it is better to tell the truth and die for it than lie and live.

 

[ruger17hmr]

Violence only brings more violence!

Just look around the world, the rampant violence is causing innocent people to die for nothing! I am not here to justify the actions of the terrorists, the genocidal dictators, or the leaders of rogue nations.
Just today 10's of innocent children lost lives in Palestine- Isreal conflict.
What have those children done to deserve such horrifying death?
Have we have become so callous to the tragic events that we simply consider them as collateral damage? Open your eyes and see that the innocent bystanders are getting slaughtered everyday because 2 parties are at odds each other. Who cares which party is at fault?

Water boarding is an act of violence, torture that is designed to collect information.
If we do decide to condone it for the sake of peace, we are no better than the very people we refer to as the terrorists.

 

[dburkhead]

Does anyone really believe that useful intel can be gained by any kind of torture whether the people approve of it or not? Especially when we're talking about insane people?

Since historically people have obtained useful intel via torture, yes. It can be. (One can also obtain complete nonsense--much depends on what you're looking for and how one goes about it.

As for "insane people," I'm sure your aware of the various jokes running around that have the punchline "I'm here because I'm crazy, not because I'm stupid." Those jokes "work" because there's a large smattering of truth to them.

BTW, "insane" is a legal term, not a medical one. Even if one uses a non-technical "casual" meaning, it still covers a lot of ground. A sociopath is insane by "causal" meaning, but is perfectly capable of providing accurate intelligence given sufficient incentive (which could be a chocolate chip cookie for that matter--I'm not using "sufficient incentive" as a euphemism here). What defines his "insanity" is that he is utterly indifferent to what happens to anyone but himself. But for his own benefit (he might really love chocolate chip cookies) that's a whole different story.

 

[dburkhead]

All men are fallible...I agree with that. The quote posted has been bastardized I agree but I still think it has meaning. Still think it is better to tell the truth and die for it than lie and live.

How wonderful for you. That gives the world to the people who don't believe as you do. The murderers will have free reign, but you can at least feel good about yourself.

As for "been bastardized," it goes beyond that. The way Washington acted means either he was a hypocrite in making the statement (which I do not believe) or it does not mean what, or at least it does not apply as broadly as, you think it does.

 

[SirRealism]

The attacks that they carried out on 9-11-01 lasted a day, the rights that we lost will last generations.

Lasted a day? Perhaps not to the thousands who died in 9/11. To them, it was a lifetime... plus all future generations.