Waterboarding

[SirRealism]

I've continued to enjoy the well-thought-out responses in this thread.

After all has been said (as if it has ), the thread has bolstered my original opinion. I believe waterboarding should be illegal as a matter of course (otherwise it'd be used too often), but I believe that if I were in the position of authority (whether that be the President or the commander in the given hypothetical situation), I'm sure I'd authorize it in order to save lives.

I've always known that even in a civilized society, there are people whose positions require that they do things outside what we consider to be our accepted standards and laws.

If that seems contradictory, then so are a great many things. That's just part of life.

 

[CarmelHP]

After all has been said (as if it has ), the thread has bolstered my original opinion. I believe waterboarding should be illegal as a matter of course (otherwise it'd be used too often), but I believe that if I were in the position of authority (whether that be the President or the commander in the given hypothetical situation), I'm sure I'd authorize it in order to save lives.

I don't think anyone is suggesting it be the first, or even an ordinary, tool; but, in extraordinary cases, it should be available.

 

[SavageEagle]

In order to save the innocent in their time of need, we need a full arsenal of resources or doom ourselves into slavery or extinction.

As Carmel said, it's not an ordinary tool, but should be available to those who protect this Country from evil.

 

[SirRealism]

In order to save the innocent in their time of need, we need a full arsenal of resources or doom ourselves into slavery or extinction.

As Carmel said, it's not an ordinary tool, but should be available to those who protect this Country from evil.

I don't believe it should be available to every single person who protects this country. That's a wide swath.

 

[dburkhead]

I don't think anyone is suggesting it be the first, or even an ordinary, tool; but, in extraordinary cases, it should be available.

Bing. Bing. Bing. We have a winner.

 

[SavageEagle]

I don't believe it should be available to every single person who protects this country. That's a wide swath.

You are correct I should have worded that better. But you get my point.

 

[Prometheus]

Put your guns down. Leave them home. Get rid of them even. Seriously, man. Stop living in fear.

Oh, wait a minute. Recognizing that there are real threats in the world and preparing to deal with them isn't actually "living in fear."

You don't see a difference in knowing that their are criminals scheming to rob and kill people in every city in the country and knowing their are terrorists plotting to kill Americans in a cave thousands of miles away?

Whats the difference you ask? The criminals can walk to their targets. Unless the terrorists teach their camels to fly and crap weapons of mass destruction they don't pose any actual threat.

There is the difference. Someone who wants to and can actually harm you and the fanatic rantings of some nut job with zero ability to carry out his fantasies.

I live in reality and I'm not in fear nor am I even concerned about some inconsequential fanatic.

 

[dburkhead]

You don't see a difference in knowing that their are criminals scheming to rob and kill people in every city in the country and knowing their are terrorists plotting to kill Americans in a cave thousands of miles away?

Have you looked at the New York skyline lately?

Whats the difference you ask? The criminals can walk to their targets. Unless the terrorists teach their camels to fly and crap weapons of mass destruction they don't pose any actual threat.

Again, have you looked at the New York skyline lately?

Have you looked at where some of those caves are? You know, like Pakistan--which just happens to be a Nuclear power, with people in the Pakistani government who are "sympathetic" to the RIFs.

Have you checked out North Korea lately: "probable" nuclear power which would have zero problems with selling someone a Nuke if they were going to use it against the US--particularly if they could have even a shred of "plausible deniability."

Have you checked out conditions in the former Soviet Union lately: they don't even know themselves what various WMD's they have, what's in all the various labe scattered around, and the Russian Mafia is as likely to have control of anything "found" as the "legitimate" government.

There is the difference. Someone who wants to and can actually harm you and the fanatic rantings of some nut job with zero ability to carry out his fantasies.


I live in reality and I'm not in fear nor am I even concerned about some inconsequential fanatic.

It's September 10, 2001 and you are proclaiming that there's no way that terrorists can launch a major attack, costing thousands of lives, on the US.

Incidentally. I can think of at least half a dozen ways, even without access to nukes, bugs, or anything not available on the open market, for someone you dismiss as an "inconsequential fanatic" to cause death tolls in the US numbering in the thousands. If I can think of them, so can those "inconsequential fanatics." Fortunately, we have Orwell's "rough men" who have the explicit job of thinking up exactly those kinds of things for purposes of countering them.

How's the fishing there in Egypt?

 

[Michiana]

You must live in a cave yourself

Whats the difference you ask? The criminals can walk to their targets. Unless the terrorists teach their camels to fly and crap weapons of mass destruction they don't pose any actual threat. There is the difference. Someone who wants to and can actually harm you and the fanatic rantings of some nut job with zero ability to carry out his fantasies. I live in reality and I'm not in fear nor am I even concerned about some inconsequential fanatic.

I had to finally chime in; where are YOU living, in a cave? Don't you read newspapers and watch the news on TV. WOW!!!! You are scary.

 

[techres]

I had to finally chime in; where are YOU living, in a cave? Don't you read newspapers and watch the news on TV. WOW!!!! You are scary.

I promised myself to not post here again, but I am bad about new year's resolutions.

I think what Prometheus was saying is that there is a difference between the single attack, made 7+ years ago, by one 20 man team than what Israel faces with attacks on a daily basis from terrorists who can move from a contiguous terrorist country into the country that is being defended.

And for all our border problems, and for all the porusness of our borders, we are still lucky to be distant from the lands where our terrorists train and while they can fly here on planes, building and transporting a nuke is a whole nuther thing that having oceans around us has helped us with.

As Glen Garrison said in the days following the attack, Al-Queda blew their powder in their attack and used up their resources. Now wether they have been able to reconstitute is the questions. Additionally, do they have something bigger in their arsenal to use is a second question.

So, the point that is being made is in proportions. Is the threat one of multi-cell of 20-30, creative, brutal attackers who attack every 10-15 years and kill thousands, the same as a threat from larger multi-cells, highly technical, connected attackers who attack with WMD weapons that kill hundreds of thousands?

The reason why the proportions question is important is that in trade to "protect us from the threat" a trade has been asked from each of us. If I am being asked to buy something, or buy into something, I have to know exactly what I am buying.

And of course, the only answer is that we have to trust in one answer or another without any real evidence that is available or tangible. We all know the RIF would love to have nukes, but then again I know many guys who would like to be hung like a horse (what you gonna do when reality does not match up to dreams?).

Now, you will of course point out that the only way to be proven wrong will be when mushroom clouds rise from American cities and we cannot possibly risk that. And others will retort that one attack in 10-15 years on American soil does not justify a "shake down" on our basic liberties.

And back and forth we argue and argue.

Of course they knocked down the towers, and of course they killed thousands. Seriously, we all get that and know what that means. It however will not determine all that we will do and choose from that day forward.

Remember, the only use of WMD's in 2001 was not from RIF's who actually used conventional weapons, it was from an American source.

 

[Michiana]

I think what Prometheus was saying is that there is a difference between the single attack, made 7+ years ago, by one 20 man team than what Israel faces with attacks on a daily basis from terrorists who can move from a contiguous terrorist country into the country that is being defended.

What people seem to be missing is although we have not had a major attack in the US since 9-11 look what has happened all over this world with terroists blowing up buildings, trains, busses. etc. killing thousands of innocent people. Think maybe we have not experienced this is because Bush did whatever was necessary to keep the bad guys out of the US. None of us know what is going on but I am not that naive to believe there have not been a lot of failed attempts these past seven plus years. This is a very small world we live in and don't think for a minute an ocean has kept the bad guys from blowing things up in Indianapolis or New York City.

 

[techres]

What people seem to be missing is although we have not had a major attack in the US since 9-11 look what has happened all over this world with terroists blowing up buildings, trains, busses. etc. killing thousands of innocent people. Think maybe we have not experienced this is because Bush did whatever was necessary to keep the bad guys out of the US. None of us know what is going on but I am not that naive to believe there have not been a lot of failed attempts these past seven plus years. This is a very small world we live in and don't think for a minute an ocean has kept the bad guys from blowing things up in Indianapolis or New York City.

Blowing things up takes very little. The easy attack that we have not experienced in mass is the lone gunman/bomber who walks into a chucky cheese and takes out a birthday party. This is nearly impossible to protect from, has huge impact, and takes nearly nothing to pull off (see Israel). Waterboarding gives you nothing on these attacks as the cells are small to lone in nature (again, see Israel).

The only place where waterboarding a few key people will have any effect is in a huge scale attack (logistically speaking).

Now, again, we have seen nothing like the first in any numbers. That means that our attackers only like to "shoot the moon" with mega attacks, or they have a harder time launching even the smaller attacks than we thought.

So when I am presented with a lack of the easy type, and at the same time I am told we have to lose XYZ because of an imminent threat of a hugely difficult (logistically speaking) attack, I find myself resistant in the same way as Prometheus.

 

[turnandshoot4]

While we may not have been attacked by terrorists since 9-11, I still cannot condone what Bush has done with our rights. The attacks that they carried out on 9-11-01 lasted a day, the rights that we lost will last generations.

 

[Crystalship1]

While we may not have been attacked by terrorists since 9-11, I still cannot condone what Bush has done with our rights. The attacks that they carried out on 9-11-01 lasted a day, the rights that we lost will last generations.

And what (as an individual) have you lost? What do you have to do differently now? I'm curious since I haven't experienced anything that I am aware of as far as my daily routine goes.

 

[turnandshoot4]

I am considered a terroist due to my constant references to the constitution.

As a terrorist I can be waterboarded. (the reason for this thread)

As a terrorist I can have my phone calls taped without a warrant.

I can go on. If we lose these rights together we lose them as individuals.

 

[smitty12b]

I am considered a terroist due to my constant references to the constitution.

As a terrorist I can be waterboarded. (the reason for this thread)

As a terrorist I can have my phone calls taped without a warrant.

I can go on. If we lose thise rights together we lose them as individuals.

Questioning or challenging the constitution or the government doesn't make you a terrorist, it makes you American.

 

[Michiana]

please support your statement of lost rights?

While we may not have been attacked by terrorists since 9-11, I still cannot condone what Bush has done with our rights. The attacks that they carried out on 9-11-01 lasted a day, the rights that we lost will last generations.

With the exception of added security at airports I have personally not seen any infringement on my rights. You are making general statements, how about some examples how YOUR rights have been taken away from YOU?

 

[turnandshoot4]

According to the FBI you are incorrect. https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...a_terrorist_fbi_brochure_from_the_1999_a.html

 

[smitty12b]

I would like to see the paper where that is policy and not a local leo training tool.

 

[turnandshoot4]

With the exception of added security at airports I have personally not seen any infringement on my rights. You are making general statements, how about some examples how YOUR rights have been taken away from YOU?

I do not know if I have been wire tapped, I may have been. The government doesn't have to tell me. Or a judge. Or anyone else for that matter.

Why make an exception for added security? Why is an old woman getting violated at an airport ok? Why does her dog have to be violated? Because it didn't happen to YOU personally? That is not ok in my mind. Again I use this quote "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin

The same conclusion can be drawn that YOU personally wasn't attacked. Why then would anyone support the war? Those who were attacked died. Therefore have no voice.

I would like to be that voice for those who lose their rights. Eventhough I have not lost them personally, I will not stand by as others lose theirs.