Waterboarding

[dburkhead]

Violence only brings more violence!

Thank you Neville Chamberlain.

Once you convince our enemies of that, then we'll be able to talk.

Go ahead. I'll wait.

 

[SirRealism]

Violence only brings more violence!
...snip...
I am not here to justify the actions of the terrorists, the genocidal dictators, or the leaders of rogue nations.

This cannot go unanswered. No, violence does not ONLY bring more violence. Bad guy enters my house and rapes my wife. I kill bad guy. No more violence. Statement refuted.

Do not include in your argument the fact that you do not condone the actions of terrorists. If it needs to be said, then your point has already been made.

 

[dburkhead]

What are "roving wiretaps" then?

A largely media created myth. The various intelligence agencies have always had the power to collect military intelligence without needing warrants, judges, or anything like that. This intelligence was directed at foreign individuals but when the foreign individuals were talking to US persons (a "term of art" which is a bit more broad than just US citizens) the intelligence agencies could not help but hear the US person's part of the conversation. This was not forbidden at least as far back as the mid 80's that I have personal knowledge of*. What was limited is what could be done with the US person's overheard part of the conversation. The main thrust of those limits was that it was simply and utterly forbidden to use it as evidence in any criminal or civil proceeding against the US person. In fact, it was utterly forbidden to release that information outside the "shop" and it's superior offices.

The only thing that has changed on this subject is that issues related to international terrorism has been moved from "law enforcement" to "military intelligence gathering" (where it should have been in the first place, IMO).

So if you regularly make calls to a non-US person (one party of the conversation has to be such for this to apply) who is determined to be likely involved in terrorism, then, yes, that call might be intercepted and recorded--and the non-US person's portion of the call (after removing any personal references to you) might be disseminated among intelligence agencies. This is exactly what you would have expected if you had regularly made phone calls ot KGB headquarters, or known Soviet agents, during the Reagan years.

* I do know something about these things. My Air Force Specialty was Cryptologic Linguist. At the time the code was 208X3A. Since then they've revised the code scheme and I believe the current one in 1N3X3. Google it. Personally, I ended up being a glorified clerk-typist, but I had to go through all the security briefings and training before they'd let me into the building, so I do have some knowledge of what the policies were then to compare with what I'm seeing now.

 

[SavageEagle]

* I do know something about these things. My Air Force Specialty was Cryptologic Linguist. At the time the code was 208X3A. Since then they've revised the code scheme and I believe the current one in 1N3X3. Google it. Personally, I ended up being a glorified clerk-typist, but I had to go through all the security briefings and training before they'd let me into the building, so I do have some knowledge of what the policies were then to compare with what I'm seeing now.

Very very nice. You have gained my utmost respect. May I ask as to what language? Sorry for the thread jack.


Wire taps are funny things. They don't have to be listening in on your phone anymore. Just remember the "Eye in the Sky" and Laser hearing aids.

 

[turnandshoot4]

So if you regularly make calls to a non-US person (one party of the conversation has to be such for this to apply) who is determined to be likely involved in terrorism, then, yes, that call might be intercepted and recorded--and the non-US person's portion of the call (after removing any personal references to you) might be disseminated among intelligence agencies. This is exactly what you would have expected if you had regularly made phone calls ot KGB headquarters, or known Soviet agents, during the Reagan years.

First off thanks for your service.

That being said why is it ok to listen to anything that I have to say while I'm on U.S. soil? Because someone thinks that they should? How are so many thousands being wiretapped? Why were laws enacted that the Bush administration can NOT be investigated after they leave office? Why the secrecy?

Ahh, a reference to the cold war days. Yep. Give up your rights American People, the COMMUNISTS ARE COMING! Oh wait, we beat them. Just like we will beat the RIF's. We, however, NOT beat them by giving up ANY rights. That is what they want. In one attack we will give up our rights? They won. They hate our way of life? Then they just changed it. All in one attack and some sweeping legislation from a republican party that says they stand for "small government."

Take note and read this. Do not gloss this over. We will beat the RIF's the same way we beat the communists.

With Coca Cola, Mickey Mouse, and other forms of comsumerism.



On a side note the above post was in all caps. In an effort to stop everyone from reading it like I was yelling it was changed. Great discussion folks!!!

 

[SavageEagle]

This is going to be the second biggest thread next to the Funny picture thread if we're not careful. Oh wait, I think we're too late!

Carry on!

 

[turnandshoot4]

Oh what have I done!?!?!?!?!?!?!

 

[SirRealism]

Oh what have I done!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Yep, it is a great thread. I've learned a great deal... and even though I have strong opinions... I'd probably still go shooting with anyone in the thread.

As I said early on, I still say it's amazing that we argue these points at all.

 

[turnandshoot4]

Aside from the conversation going on in my head this is the best one I have had all day!!

 

[SirRealism]

Aside from the conversation going on in my head this is the best one I have had all day!!

Conversation going on inside your head? Nothing a little waterboarding wouldn't cure!!!

Was that over the line?

 

[turnandshoot4]

HAHA. They tell me it was!

 

[BloodEclipse]

Sorry, we haven't used torture (in the open and accepted anyway) in our 200+ year history (up until the dubya anyway).

Using your logic you cannot tell me that we need torture now and didn't need it during the Revolution.. or during the war of 1812, the civil war, WWI, WWII (think atomic bomb race), Korea, Vietnam ect. ect.

We have used what some think is torture in our past as I pointed out here:
https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/politics_laws_and_2nd_amendment/15785-waterboarding-8.html

Gentlemen, with respect, that does not say "...that all Americans are created equal...", it says "all men". To further drive that point home, our wise Founders added another layer: "that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights". Clearly, our Founders were saying that the right to life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, and indeed all rights belonged to all men, no matter the line that divided them.

I'll argue when you take up arms against my country you forfeit your rights. When you are caught on the battlefield shooting at my soldiers you have lost all claims to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Now... We are presented with a situation in which enemies caught may have information vital to saving lives. Many if not all of us, given those specifics, would say that there is no line we cannot cross in retrieving that information. As long as the enemy is olive skinned, wears a turban or a robe, or in short is Not Like Us, it's easy to make that statement. When the "enemy" starts looking a lot more like us, and his status as "enemy" is decided by one guy in an office, especially one who already defines himself as better than the rest of us or whose loyalties and even citizenship are questionable, the line becomes very blurred. Once the concepts of waterboarding, of torture, of psychological warfare, etc exist, they are available for use, especially when there is no outside knowledge or oversight that does not come with a "wink wink, nudge nudge". We cannot put the genie back in the bottle. Pandora's box is open. What we can do is define strict rules which we, the people, emplace upon our servants, government, setting the use of that knowledge as beyond the pale, and further, strict punishment for those who violate those rules.
As noted above the Genie has been out of the bottle for over 100 years and yet we act like all of this is new.
Is there a place for torture, for psy-ops, etc.? I don't know. Part of me knows that to dissuade criminals, you have to create a possible penalty they will not want to pay. Loss of life is usually what we've chosen, saying that to defend ourselves (on a personal level) means that the criminal has already chosen that someone will die and it is our job to ensure that the one who does so is not us. Alternatively, given that analogy, would we, individuals, be justified in torturing a criminal before calling the police to take him away? Of course not, but the terrorist has many times already made peace with the idea of dying as a martyr.

Obama believes waterboarding is torture, so the fact I find myself disagreeing with him is hardly surprising.

 

[dburkhead]

Very very nice. You have gained my utmost respect. May I ask as to what language? Sorry for the thread jack.


Wire taps are funny things. They don't have to be listening in on your phone anymore. Just remember the "Eye in the Sky" and Laser hearing aids.

Russian, but it's been a very long time. Nowadays whenever I try to think of the Russian for something, it keeps coming out Japanese.

 

[dburkhead]

First off thanks for your service.

That being said why is it ok to listen to anything that I have to say while I'm on U.S. soil? Because someone thinks that they should? How are so many thousands being wiretapped? Why were laws enacted that the Bush administration can NOT be investigated after they leave office? Why the secrecy?

Because they are not listening to you per se. They are listening to the non-US person you would be speaking to. You just happen to be there.

What "so many thousands"? Cite please. Or is this a case of, once again, believing liberal propaganda.

What laws that say the Bush administration can not be investigated? Again, cite please.

Why the secrecy? Why did Nathan Hale sneak around with the military information he gathered? What "freedom" is lost here? The "freedom" for the government not to keep military secrets? That "freedom" cannot be lost since we never had it in the first place.

Ahh, a reference to the cold war days. Yep. Give up your rights American People, the COMMUNISTS ARE COMING!

And one thing we learned post cold-war, as many old Soviet documents came to light was that they. were. coming. Much of the "fearmongering" that the left accused the right of doing was right.

So why do you seem so willing to believe that dealing with the RIFs is any different?

Oh wait, we beat them. Just like we will beat the RIF's.

Exactly. We beat them. And the tools used to beat the Warsaw Pact in the Cold War are being brought to bear in defeating the RIFs.

We, however, NOT beat them by giving up ANY rights. That is what they want.

That is not what they want. That is not what the don't want. They don't care what rights you give up or not.

Are you a Christian or a Jew? They want you "submitted" and enslaved. Are you not a "person of the book" (neither Muslim nor Christian nor Jew)? They want you dead.

In one attack we will give up our rights? They won. They hate our way of life? Then they just changed it. All in one attack and some sweeping legislation from a republican party that says they stand for "small government."

Back in the 80's, Reagan was a believer in Small Government. This was actually a rather new thing. Neither Nixon nor Eisenhower were "small government" (by the standards of their day). However, Reagan saw an opportunity to actually bring about the fall of Communism and remove that particular Sword of Damocles hanging over the US's head. Thus the aggressive military build up, the Strategic Defense Initiative (expensive? Yep. But we could afford it better than they could afford technology to counter it), etc. Recommend reading "The Strategy of Technology" by Possony and Pournelle. That, combined with the Democratic Congress's insistence on major increases in their beloved entitlement, vote buying, programs led to drastically increased Federal Spending. As Reagan and his advisors predicted, cutting taxes lead to increased revenue. Unfortunately, Federal Spending outpaced the increased revenue leading to growth in the Federal deficit.

However that was part of the price paid to Win The War. Unfortunately, no one since then--on either side--has been willing to attempt to implement Reagan's original vision. (And I have my own problems with the Reagan administration, particularly on the "legislate morality" side.)

Since then, Republicans, at the National Level at least, have been more Democrat Lite than anything "small government."

Take note and read this. Do not gloss this over. We will beat the RIF's the same way we beat the communists.

With Coca Cola, Mickey Mouse, and other forms of comsumerism.

You have a remarkably naive view of how we beat the communists. You forget the very large spending that got the Soviet military leaders to look across the border and say "not today" and to do that every day for 70 years.

In the Cold War, Vietnam was a huge win for the US. Yes, it was costly for us. Yes, in the end South Vietnam fell to the Soviet-backed North (after we left, BTW. In 1973 we demonstrated that, given air support, the SVA could stave off attacks from the North. In 1975 Congress refused to authorize the air support with predictable results). What neither the Media of the time nor "history" classes of today tell you is that it was more costly to the Soviets. In, for example, the infamous Tet offensive, a huge army of men and materials come down from the Soviet Union. Essentially none of it went back. We could afford it better than could the Soviet Union. So, as an individual action Vietnam could be considered a loss, but as a campaign in the Cold War? Major strategic victory.

And so it went. They couldn't defeat us militarily (or, at least, they didn't believe they could without unacceptable losses of their own--a Pyrrhic victory at best). They couldn't defeat us economically (despite all the claims to the contrary from the Left). The effort to do so on both fronts is what brought about the final collapse of the Soviet Union.

While the collapse was economic in the end, you cannot dismiss the military side of the equation, they could just have rolled right over us when they "lost" the economic side. Wars of conquest to take the wealth of a wealthier neighbor (and, in the modern world, "neighbor" could mean anywhere in the world) are as old as mankind. And when you have, as the Soviets did and the RIFs do today, an ideology that makes such conquest "right" and "good" it's all the easier to do it.

Personally, I think the rise of the use of terrorism by the RIFs in the last few decades is a sign that we are winning. It's the last gasp of the losing side, much like the Ghost Dance of the Apache. However, in such situations, the last thing you want to do is reduce the pressure on them.

On a side note the above post was in all caps. In an effort to stop everyone from reading it like I was yelling it was changed. Great discussion folks!!!

Yes it is. And that we can have this discussion is the greatest indication thing about it.

 

[CarmelHP]

What are "roving wiretaps" then?

Not what you think they are. They are done under warrant. The only difference from a traditional wiretap on a landline is that the wiretap follows the suspect, not a specific phone. Traditional wiretaps were OK when only landline phones existed but now terrorist suspects use multiple cell and satellite phones and change them often to avoid detection. Their use goes back to 1986 and are rare, usually less than half a dozen a year. So that affects you how?

The government doesn't have to tell me. Or a judge. Or anyone else for that matter.

And you got this where?

 

[CarmelHP]

How are so many thousands being wiretapped? Why were laws enacted that the Bush administration can NOT be investigated after they leave office? Why the secrecy?

Where do you get this stuff? Have you been reading DailyKos again?

 

[Michiana]

Isn't is time to end this Post?

For all our faults the United States is the greatest country in the world; all the people who come to our shores is a testament to this. Far from perfect but heads above any other place to live in this world. Personally I get tired of listening to some of the “intellectual marvels” we seem to have posting this negative rubbish about all that is wrong with this country. I never read anything positive about the United States from you folks; but these same people brag how the can carry a handgun on their hip at the local mega store as it is there God given right according to the constitution to do so. Try doing that in any other civilized country and see where it gets you; in jail or worse. You people should move to Palestine, Afghanistan or some other third world country so you can march through the streets shooting you rifle in the air all day.

How many of you have served this great country or even taken the time to vote? I bet the percentage is small. We have freedom of speech in this great country along with the right to bear arms but those freedoms have come at a great price from others. Let’s end this thread and get back to talking about firearms, something you hopefully have some accurate information about for a change.

 

[SavageEagle]

I only talk about what's wrong with this Country hoping at the same time we can talk about how to fix those things. In this case, why fix what isn't broken? Legal or Illegal, people of tyranny will do as they wish. But if we use it for the greater good, there is nothing more patriotic than that.

As for me not serving this Country, I beg to differ. Through the Boy Scouts I participated in many sessions at the state house as a Page for various people. I achieved my Eagle Scout by helping to put my little town on the map. Much Community service was given and organized on my part. I tried VERY hard to get into the Army. Because someone doesn't know how to input records I cannot. Instead I am looking for other ways to serve my Country. Do I vote? Bet your a$$ I do. I didn't used to. I voted at 18 in 2000, skipped every year but the last 2 elections.

Becareful on who you direct some of those comments to. I think most of us here, served in one way or another or is actively involved with the political process. I too am tired of seeing people say how they want change and when offered a way to do so, balk and put down those ideas. I have proposed Nationwide Rallies to get people to come together to make our voices heard. Most people here had nothing but negitivity toward the idea because mine and others' ideas weren't good enough or down right wrong. Nobody got the bright idea to give their input and HELP. So the idea seems to have been tossed aside. Well I haven't given up on this idea. It's the only way to make our unified voice heard. Not just about gun rights either. About ALL rights. About taking back this Country for the People. Impossible? So was the Revolutionary War, but we won anyway. I'm not talking armed revolution here. I'm talking Peaceful change by the People, for the People. Waiting 2 or 4 years just won't do.

I've set up a small forum as a start. It still needs work and I need help with it. I don't expect anyone here wants to but it would be appreciated. This is the first open announcement and it's not finished but I don't want to make it too public yet since it needs much work.

So Michiana... What are you willing to do to help your Country?




Stand Up For Freedom

 

[Michiana]

Been there, done that

Through the Boy Scouts I participated in many sessions at the state house as a Page for various people. I achieved my Eagle Scout by helping to put my little town on the map.
So Michiana... What are you willing to do to help your Country?

I think it is great that you were a boy scout, so was I. I returned from Vietnam in 1965 after serving for four years in the US Military; 17 years before you were born so YOU should be careful who you are addressing my friend.

 

[SavageEagle]

And I thank you for your service. You fought a hard war and I can't imagine the horror you saw.

I am careful whom I address. I was simply stating that a lot of us here, especially in this thread, are no less patriotic than you, my friend. I take offense, too, to those who complain and do nothing. That's why I'm trying to help get those and others to do something about it. Typing on a keyboard won't change anything except maybe some minds and how they view a subject which is what we've done here. Whatever your feelings on torture are irrelevant at this point. When time is of the essence we must do what needs to be done to save this Country.

To think that terrorists can't pull off another massive strike on this Country easily is rubbish. We stand so tall because 7 years have passed with no direct attacks. As I've stated before, with all the illegals in this Country that we DON'T know about, Thousands could be terrorists. To pull off a massive, nationwide gunman attack on this Country would not be hard to do. If they got ahold of weapons, not much could stop them from carrying that out. With people afraid to carry a gun and gun laws increasing in this Country it won't be long before they try. That's why we have to fight these gun laws tooth and nail no matter the cost.