Was There A Server That Was Seized In Germany In The 2020 Election? Revisited 2024.

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  • Was A Server Seized In Germany, In The 2020 Election, That Held The Evidence Of Election Fraud?


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    Ingomike

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    TL;DR, Mike probably isn't crazy, per se.

    Thinking about this a little more. Waiting for it to warm up a little outside... I've been thinking about the nature of the poll question and the question I compared it to, "have aliens from outer space visited Earth?"

    Why be so confident in an answer without due cause? I just googled how many people believe aliens have visited Earth, and it looks to be about 7%. Are they crazy?

    I think it's similar to the question, did we actually go to the moon? A similar portion of the population, 5%, strongly believe the moon landing was faked. So, are they crazy?

    Here's another question in contrast of the poll question: Is the world flat? 1) likely, 2) not likely, 3) I don't know? Well, it's an absurd question, it's not just not likely, the correct answer is, "no, you ****ing nutter". It's an absurd claim, for which we have have no due cause to believe. The Earth is not flat. So yeah, I kinda think those people are crazy.

    Does it matter if someone believes extraordinary things without due cause? I think it depends how absurd is the claim, and the due cause to believe it. In other words, the strength of evidence and rationale people apply to believe it.

    Most people believe in something paranormal, for example. God/religion, is an example of that. I think religious belief is human nature. But that's not without due cause, per se, to believe in that. It's instinctive for most humans. One has to override the instinct for religion not to believe it. Belief in God is not an example of failing to think critically. It's believing in the default. But, it shows that belief is a tricky thing.

    What about "is the world flat?" Is there something wrong with that thinking? I'd say yes. People who believe it fail to think critically. It's belief without due cause. I think those people probably believe all kinds of nutty things.

    So what about people who believe there was a raid in Germany, given a bold claim and at best, weak evidence? I think people can have a capacity for critical thinking, but don't apply it to things they want to believe. Especially if they have a lot of trust in the people claiming it. I'd say I'm not confident enough to say they would be like the flat earth nutters, who would also believe all kinds of nutty things. However, I suspect the Venn diagram might show some overlap.

    To say they're incapable of critical thinking or logical reasoning, we'd need to see a pattern of believe in extraordinary things without due cause, to have confidence they believe it just because they're nuts.

    One thing I can conclude about this topic, is that Mike doesn't always apply sound logic. For example, he kept pushing the point that if I believe intelligence orgs have the capability/technology to fix elections, I should believe that they did. However, this is faulty logic because having the capacity does give due cause to believing it was likely to have happened. We'd need something else to rationally believe it was likely. Not everything that is possible, happens.
    This post is a good summary of your own normalcy bias, the admission that the CIA and military intelligence can not only influence elections, but do, and now have altered our very own election process is a big event to process.

    The following is more for others following along than to @jamil, let’s look at the soundness of IM’s logic and some facts and let folks decide for themselves if this is similar to the question of aliens have visited earth.

    It is an unassailable fact TPTB so despised Trump from the beginning of his campaign in 2015 that the FBI falsified FISA court warrants to surveil his campaign. This demonstrates the levels TPTB were willing to go before he was elected. Then look an all the extraordinary things they have done since to take out Trump. Extraordinary is and has been the norm concerning TPTB and attempts to take down Trump.

    Is there anyone that does not believe that in this tech world we live in today, where everything from our governments and top corporations critical data can be stolen or manipulated, that the CIA and military intelligence does not have the ability to hack and do as they please to internet connected voting software? This has been exposed by several whistleblowers. At one time it was called hammer and scorecard.

    We saw vote counting anomalies with our own eyes on our television screens and computers that are inexplicable. We were initially told the voting equipment was not internet connected, but later proof it was emerged. One of the top software designers /developers for the software the FBI and SEC use to find financial fraud, found fraud in the vote tallies. The very organizations that used the developer and his tools attacked him and the tools as frauds.

    Is it any surprise that the very voting machines and software we citizens rely on is produced by companies with ties to very corrupt sources of money and power? Including foreign governments and organizations hostile to the US? There have been several sources that saw US election data routed through overseas servers and just this week election software code was found to be corrupt and even had the Ukrainian anthem in it.

    Then when citizens try to secure the election process TPTB fight security protocols with all their might. The US elections are about the least secure major country elections in the world. This lack of security provides cover for the hacking manipulation of votes. The overall chaos of the election aftermath and everyone running around and even the low level fraud exposed all provided cover for the big steal.

    Finally there were two generals that came out as whistleblowers on TPTB that were the ones that said there was a raid in Germany between intelligence assets in the field over server data. Many believe this data was the elusive Kraken. These generals have no apparent motive, that I can see, to do this other than to serve the country and live up to their oath. If they did have one by all appearances it failed miserably they have been relegated to obscurity and literally scrubbed from the internet.

    In the preceding paragraphs we have the motive, the means, the outcome and we have whistleblowers that attest that it occurred, I believe it likely by this preponderance of evidence that there was a raid and fight over election data in Europe between intelligence factions and that TPTB won and it was covered up.

    Is any if this new to any of you? Is this compelling to you? Are there questions? I find this topic fascinating and would enjoy fleshing it out rather than bury this or turn it into discussions of extraterrestrials…
     

    Ingomike

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    Sometimes I see a thread pop up and for one reason or another I don’t click on it to participate. After a few days, if it’s still alive, I’ll peruse the first page and then jump to the last page, just to see how it’s evolved. This one has evolved just about how I would have imagined it would. :)

    :popcorn:
    What do you think on the topic? You have not voted yet? Do not see any discussion from you? Jump in!
     

    jamil

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    If the intelligence agencies have ran/fixed elections overseas, why wouldn't they do that here in 2020?

    The establishment HATES Trump. Why wouldn't they work to ensure he doesn't get back in, using all the tools in their toolbox?
    Well, "why wouldn't they," in absence of other evidence pointing to it happening, does not support that they did. It supports that they could have, which I have never denied.

    All it serves is to support that it's possible. Not everything that is possible has happened. But what you guys are suggesting is that we should believe any claim without corroborating evidence, that something happened just because it could have happened.
     

    Ingomike

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    Well, "why wouldn't they," in absence of other evidence pointing to it happening, does not support that they did. It supports that they could have, which I have never denied.

    All it serves is to support that it's possible. Not everything that is possible has happened. But what you guys are suggesting is that we should believe any claim without corroborating evidence, that something happened just because it could have happened.
    What would be that “corroborating evidence”? I gave you the motive, the means, the outcome and we have whistleblowers that attest that it occurred (that means said it happened unequivocally in their own writing). In your normalcy bias you probably are waiting on CNN to report it I suspect.

    I have repeatedly called this preponderance of the evidence, do you disagree that this meets that evidentiary standard? What evidentiary standard should apply to citizens understanding what their government has perpetuated? What evidentiary standard was applied in Watergate?
     

    firecadet613

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    Well, "why wouldn't they," in absence of other evidence pointing to it happening, does not support that they did. It supports that they could have, which I have never denied.

    All it serves is to support that it's possible. Not everything that is possible has happened. But what you guys are suggesting is that we should believe any claim without corroborating evidence, that something happened just because it could have happened.
    "If" they did that, you think they'd let evidence get out?
     

    Ingomike

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    "If" they did that, you think they'd let evidence get out?
    And just what would that evidence be? A video of guys in jackets that say “military intelligence good guys” while the guys they play tug of war with over a computer box have jackets that say “CIA bad guys”. His whole schtick is getting old. If we look back at other monumental events did we have any more evidence for them than we have for this situation?
     

    Ingomike

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    The CIA killed Kraken.
    You can make all the jokes you like but there were reasons that folks with great reputations put those reputations on the line and now have been relegated to punch lines. Powell had a strong reputation and no history of being a crackpot but it is far easier to buy into she was a crackpot than to get over normalcy bias and countenance that our government not only has the means but likely destroyed our freedom to vote for who we wanted…
     

    firecadet613

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    The CIA killed Kraken.
    Sure. They fix elections around the world, but they certainly wouldn't do it here.

    Every establishment politician is against Trump. The 51 or so intel guys are against Trump.

    But sure, no one messed with the votes (that millions saw disappear with their own eyes on TV) or screwed with the voting machines.

    This past election was 100% on the up and up...
     

    KG1

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    You can make all the jokes you like but there were reasons that folks with great reputations put those reputations on the line and now have been relegated to punch lines. Powell had a strong reputation and no history of being a crackpot but it is far easier to buy into she was a crackpot than to get over normalcy bias and countenance that our government not only has the means but likely destroyed our freedom to vote for who we wanted…
    Who says it was meant as a joke? Could it not be that the CIA killed Powell's Kraken of promised evidence preventing it from getting delivered in order to discredit her?
     

    KG1

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    Sure. They fix elections around the world, but they certainly wouldn't do it here.

    Every establishment politician is against Trump. The 51 or so intel guys are against Trump.

    But sure, no one messed with the votes (that millions saw disappear with their own eyes on TV) or screwed with the voting machines.

    This past election was 100% on the up and up...
    See post #91. You and IM need to slow your rolls with the defensive flailing about for a sec.
     

    jamil

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    This post is a good summary of your own normalcy bias, the admission that the CIA and military intelligence can not only influence elections, but do, and now have altered our very own election process is a big event to process.
    I think you don't understand the difference between normalcy bias and rational thinking. Logically, the fact that someone can do something is not evidence that they did. It's fair to suspect they did. To be utterly confident that they did is a failure of reasoning given the circumstances. I think you're just pissed at me because I don't accept your instincts as evidence.

    The following is more for others following along than to @jamil, let’s look at the soundness of IM’s logic and some facts and let folks decide for themselves if this is similar to the question of aliens have visited earth.
    You had claimed that "I don't know" is not an answer, implying that likely yes, or likely no are the only answers for a question like that. The point of the "aliens" example was to help you understand why "likely yes" and "likely no" are not the only answers, and that "I don't know" is actually the most reasonable answer given the circumstances.

    It is an unassailable fact TPTB so despised Trump from the beginning of his campaign in 2015 that the FBI falsified FISA court warrants to surveil his campaign. This demonstrates the levels TPTB were willing to go before he was elected. Then look an all the extraordinary things they have done since to take out Trump. Extraordinary is and has been the norm concerning TPTB and attempts to take down Trump.
    Why a raid in Germany instead of some other uncorroborated claim? Why must it be that? Because it's delicious. GWP reported it. You consumed it eagerly.

    I would wager that I could completely fabricate a plausible sounding story, have AI make it look exactly like a GWP article, and you'd accept it without scrutiny. And then we could argue about it off and on for 4 years. And I could make the same arguments that I made here, using the same rationale. And you'd eventually post a poll trying to get other people to agree with you. And the only way you'd let it go, is if someone you respect told you it was a sham. Stuff like that is just too delicious to scrutinize.

    Is there anyone that does not believe that in this tech world we live in today, where everything from our governments and top corporations critical data can be stolen or manipulated, that the CIA and military intelligence does not have the ability to hack and do as they please to internet connected voting software? This has been exposed by several whistleblowers. At one time it was called hammer and scorecard.
    Just because it can doesn't mean it did. This is a logical fallacy. It's an appeal to possibility.
    We saw vote counting anomalies with our own eyes on our television screens and computers that are inexplicable. We were initially told the voting equipment was not internet connected, but later proof it was emerged. One of the top software designers /developers for the software the FBI and SEC use to find financial fraud, found fraud in the vote tallies. The very organizations that used the developer and his tools attacked him and the tools as frauds.
    To whatever extent this is true, which seems to me it's to a sufficient extent, if it were all 100% true, it is not evidence that a CIA raid in Germany happened.

    Is it any surprise that the very voting machines and software we citizens rely on is produced by companies with ties to very corrupt sources of money and power? Including foreign governments and organizations hostile to the US? There have been several sources that saw US election data routed through overseas servers and just this week election software code was found to be corrupt and even had the Ukrainian anthem in it.
    I think it's difficult to navigate the reports for accuracy. We have to rely on sources that are uber biased. What I mean by that. Both sides can and do fabricate stuff that benefits their own side. On the opposing side, their outlets are the only sources of news that will publish news that is true, that is unfavorable to our side. Of course they'll publish nonsense. But they're eager to publish the truth when it hurts their opposition. It's the same on our side. Only right wing sources were being honest about Hunter's laptop for example. You weren't reading the truth about that on any mainstream center, to left outlets. That creates a problem of credibility, because we don't know when our own side is lying to us or telling the truth.

    You're eager to consume information that confirms what you already believe, and you're reluctant to let go of it even if proven wrong.

    Then when citizens try to secure the election process TPTB fight security protocols with all their might. The US elections are about the least secure major country elections in the world. This lack of security provides cover for the hacking manipulation of votes. The overall chaos of the election aftermath and everyone running around and even the low level fraud exposed all provided cover for the big steal.
    None of this is false except I think categorizing it as "the big steal" sounds about as nutty as progressives insisting 2020 was the most secure election ever. There's a space between the extremes where the truth most likely resides.

    Finally there were two generals that came out as whistleblowers on TPTB that were the ones that said there was a raid in Germany between intelligence assets in the field over server data. Many believe this data was the elusive Kraken. These generals have no apparent motive, that I can see, to do this other than to serve the country and live up to their oath. If they did have one by all appearances it failed miserably they have been relegated to obscurity and literally scrubbed from the internet.
    I don't expect deep partisans to see any apparent motive. However. If you're on the losing side, why would it not be advantageous to push conspiracy theories to sow distrust in the election? Not that it required far fetched stories to bring doubt in the election results.

    In the preceding paragraphs we have the motive, the means, the outcome and we have whistleblowers that attest that it occurred, I believe it likely by this preponderance of evidence that there was a raid and fight over election data in Europe between intelligence factions and that TPTB won and it was covered up.
    You have people who have the means, motive, and opportunity. They also had the means, motive, and opportunity to do a lot of other things we can imagine, but we don't believe everything just because our minds can imagine it. Any evidence a raid actually happened? Any testimony from people seeing strange things when this supposedly went down? Anything other than people claiming it happened who have a reason to lie?

    Is any if this new to any of you? Is this compelling to you? Are there questions? I find this topic fascinating and would enjoy fleshing it out rather than bury this or turn it into discussions of extraterrestrials…

    Set aside what you want to believe. Ask questions critical of what you do believe. Ask if you'd believe it if the exact same story happened, but for the other side. Does your political leanings make this seem more real than if you had opposite political leanings? Do I want to believe the truth, or do I want to believe what my imagination feeds me.
     

    Ingomike

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    Who says it was meant as a joke? Could it not be that the CIA killed Powell's Kraken of promised evidence preventing it from getting delivered in order to discredit her?
    I misunderstood you if that is what you meant. It is clear TPTB discredited Powell. I doubt she ever had the actual evidence in her possession, but do believe either those she trusted enough to put her reputation on the line showed or told her of such evidence. Good to see you in the fray, hope all is well for you.
     

    jamil

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    "If" they did that, you think they'd let evidence get out?
    I mean, that's how every conspiracy theory works. 9/11. Moon landing. Flat earth. Aliens. Kennedy assassination. Sometimes the conspiracy theories turn out to be true, and sometimes not. And it's the times people get them right that gives them confidence that they have some kind of super-keen instincts that they must trust. But when they're wrong, no such mental update happens. So people go on thinking that their instincts are better than logical reasoning for truth discernment.
     

    firecadet613

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    Who says it was meant as a joke? Could it not be that the CIA killed Powell's Kraken of promised evidence preventing it from getting delivered in order to discredit her?
    See post #91. You and IM need to slow your rolls with the defensive flailing about for a sec.
    What roll needs to be slowed?!

    See below. It was a statement. You can believe it was on the up and up or you can believe it was fixed and fraudulent. No skin off my back.
    Sure. They fix elections around the world, but they certainly wouldn't do it here.

    Every establishment politician is against Trump. The 51 or so intel guys are against Trump.

    But sure, no one messed with the votes (that millions saw disappear with their own eyes on TV) or screwed with the voting machines.

    This past election was 100% on the up and up...
     

    firecadet613

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    I mean, that's how every conspiracy theory works. 9/11. Moon landing. Flat earth. Aliens. Kennedy assassination. Sometimes the conspiracy theories turn out to be true, and sometimes not. And it's the times people get them right that gives them confidence that they have some kind of super-keen instincts that they must trust. But when they're wrong, no such mental update happens. So people go on thinking that their instincts are better than logical reasoning for truth discernment.
    Quite possibly, but it seems you have a lot more invested in this than I do, given the dissertations you've written in this thread...
     

    KG1

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    I misunderstood you if that is what you meant. It is clear TPTB discredited Powell. I doubt she ever had the actual evidence in her possession, but do believe either those she trusted enough to put her reputation on the line showed or told her of such evidence. Good to see you in the fray, hope all is well for you.
    No worries. The skin is still thick it's the innards that aren't holding up so well lately.
     
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