vote on banning male circumcision - Only In California

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  • Fletch

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    I've always struggled with this idea of applying "propery rights" to children's bodies as a rationale for government action to protect them.

    For lack of a better example at the moment, what if forcing a child to eat peas causes them psychological damage? Giving vaccinations can leave a scar, etc. Parents have to force their will on children all the time. I think it's too difficult to draw a line. Ah... a better example: Some parents will go ahead and have a child's adenoids removed as an elective procedure during a tonsillectomy as a preventative measure for things like recurrent ear infections or sleep apnea. This is a permanent mutilation without consent, but would you oppose this as well?
    I'm not a doctor. If the adenoid removal was medically necessary, I'd probably go along with it. But "just in case" easily turns into "where does it stop?" Why don't we remove all the spare parts at birth, and get it over with? Why not an appendectomy at birth, to prevent appendicitis? And let's do a lap band, to prevent childhood obesity. And get rid of that gall bladder, since all it does is get messed up later in life anyway. The list goes on and on.

    Going the other direction, there's nothing separating male from female circumcision. There is no evidence whatsoever that the original intent of circumcision was not to reduce sexual pleasure, and I can easily see an argument that this was exactly the intent (suborning baser desires in favor of serving God, a persistent theme throughout the Bible). That ancillary benefits have been discovered by modern medicine several thousand years later is completely irrelevant. Those demanding the right to circumcise their boys should logically be in favor of any parent who wants to circumcise their girls.

    I'm personally in favor of a rule that says, if it ain't broke, don't remove it. Our parts exist for a reason. For children, leave them be, unless they are creating a clear and present danger to life or health. If an adult wants to electively start whacking bits off of themselves, by all means have at it. Satisfy your amputational fetish on your own body, and allow kids to have the same choice when they're of age.
     

    BigMatt

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    Should the government stay out of female circumcision? Let's say the full circumcision practiced in some countries, clitoris, labia, and partial closing of the opening so intercourse is rendered not just pleasure free, but painful.

    You don't think government has a legitimate interest in regulating that?

    And please, spare me the tap dance and just answer.

    I don't agree with it, but I don't think the government should be involved either.
     

    awatarius

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    Let's just nuke San Francisco and be done with it!

    OH YES Brilliant idea lets just kill everyone that doesn't agree with us?? NUKE THEM?!?! Yes... You know how often I heard that growing up? We should just put them all on an island and blow them up... It's certainly a sign of a small mind, and if you say sarcasm, or joke... well it's not funny. Things like this in history have happened, and could happen again (groups of people getting wiped out for an idea). I don't agree with them but I don't agree with killing, or joking about killing them.

    Thanks,
    Matthew
     

    Paco Bedejo

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    I don't want to derail the whole thread, but vaccines can be pretty irreversible as well.

    Ian's Voice

    Both, to me, represent a calculated risk that I would rather leave up to parents.

    I agree with you about vaccinations, I just don't see them as being in even the same ballpark as genital mutilation. Some vaccinations are necessary for our species. I would never want them to be mandated or outlawed. Others, however, are about as necessary as breast implants. There's a lot of grey area in vaccinations.

    Circumcision, on the other hand, serves no positive purpose in children, assuming you're a capable-enough parent to arm them with a washcloth & the wits to use it. STDs shouldn't even enter this argument.

    Sure, two religions encourage circumcision...but that's not a good enough reason to make permanent changes to a child's body, IMO. If a religion sprouted which encouraged foot-binding, would that be OK too?

    Ultimately, unless parents have ALL rights to a child's body (making enslavement, molestation & murder acceptable), then body modifications for little to no reason shouldn't be acceptable either.
     
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    BigMatt

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    Should the government EVER be involved between you and your kids? Should you be able to do anything to them with no government interference?

    We have accepted ways of doing things here that have been done for hundreds of years. I am not going to tell anyone else that they can't spank their kid or circumcise their kid.

    When you are talking about the societies that cut off clitorises and labia, these societies are so far out of our realm they aren't even worth talking about. These same societies stone people to death and kill people who don't like their religion.

    We are talking about circumcision not killing the kids.

    You are trying to take this so far in one direction that it seems so black and white. Why don't we talk about exerting your will on your kids? Should you be able to exert any will on your kids at all? Should we just let them run around like wild animals?

    This subject isn't black and white. There are greys in there.
     

    awatarius

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    I am starting to get a very odd feeling that.....

    This is turning into a giant swordfight, debating who has the better johnson.

    I am starting to get... uncomfortable.

    It really seems that some people feel strongly on this.

    Which to me, is odd.

    Yes, I can see what you mean. Let me put this into perspective from someone with experience... I have more hands on experience in the penis world and can say that there is a little difference in nerve response to circumcised vs non-circumsized. That being said that's only average... as some people are not affected at all, and generally the effect is only minimal. In my world it makes no difference. There is absolutely no doubt that circumcision helps fight all kinds of VD's, and hygiene helps but it doesn't cover it all. Why don't they have it done as adults? Because more nerve endings, blood flow, and development occurs there as you get older. Adult circumcision can be an almost crippling experience, but when done as a youth minimal pain, and minimal recovery time. Some gay people prefer one way or another and sometimes gay men get it done... most take a week off of work, and are in tons of pain. So if YOU ARE thinking its a good idea get it done young, and if you don't want to likely you will be fine anyway about it. And the biggest part... if you go to San Francisco the boys will like you both ways LOL LOL LOL:gaychase:
     

    dross

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    We have accepted ways of doing things here that have been done for hundreds of years. I am not going to tell anyone else that they can't spank their kid or circumcise their kid.

    The societies that you point these things out in are so far out of our realm they aren't even worth talking about. These same societies stone people to death and kill people who don't like their religion.

    We are talking about circumcision not killing the kids.

    You are trying to take this so far in one direction that it seems so black and white. Why don't we talk about exerting your will on your kids? Should you be able to exert any will on your kids at all? Should we just let them run around like wild animals?

    This subject isn't black and white. There are greys in there.

    You misunderstand what I'm trying to do. By defining the parameters of the argument, I can understand what the argument is really about. I can't tell where people are coming from.

    If you say the government should stay out of circumcision, you could be saying one of many things. By defining the limits, even if they're broad, I can understand what you're arguing.

    We can't get to the greys until we found out where the black and white begins and ends.
     

    BigMatt

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    You misunderstand what I'm trying to do. By defining the parameters of the argument, I can understand what the argument is really about. I can't tell where people are coming from.

    If you say the government should stay out of circumcision, you could be saying one of many things. By defining the limits, even if they're broad, I can understand what you're arguing.

    We can't get to the greys until we found out where the black and white begins and ends.

    When you come to Indiana, I will buy you a beer.
     

    ElsiePeaRN

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    I'm not a doctor. If the adenoid removal was medically necessary, I'd probably go along with it. But "just in case" easily turns into "where does it stop?"

    So it seems your position applies to any elective procedure. The problem that I see is that "medical necessity" is often just an opinion. And many procedures and treatments are done prophylactically based on a physician's best guess. Such is the case with elective adenoid removal, circumcision, etc. You may go to different physicians and get different opinions as to what's "necessary" or even "advised" and the decision is still left up to you to say yes or no.

    I believe children's parents & physicians are the better choice over the government to make these decisions. The reason I struggle with this is that I am reluctant to support any approach that takes that right away from you as a parent. I oppose most instances of government telling you what you must or cannot do for your children, with the exception of clear abuse.

    Going the other direction, there's nothing separating male from female circumcision. There is no evidence whatsoever that the original intent of circumcision was not to reduce sexual pleasure, and I can easily see an argument that this was exactly the intent (suborning baser desires in favor of serving God, a persistent theme throughout the Bible). That ancillary benefits have been discovered by modern medicine several thousand years later is completely irrelevant. Those demanding the right to circumcise their boys should logically be in favor of any parent who wants to circumcise their girls.

    I disagree that "original intent" has any weight at all in deciding whether to allow circumcision today. We are living in the present and have different reasons and more evidenced-based data on which to base our decisions. I strongly disagree that one can not separate male from female circumcision on these grounds. While the medical community may be divided about the health benefits of male circumcision, there is no such division regarding female circumcision. I don't agree that the fact that they both began as cultural traditions has any bearing on our decision-making today.

    I'm personally in favor of a rule that says, if it ain't broke, don't remove it.

    We are in general agreement about this, but I believe the gray-area decisions are not to be enforced by the government but rather made in consultation with your physician.
     

    dom1104

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    Yes, I can see what you mean. Let me put this into perspective from someone with experience... I have more hands on experience in the penis world and can say that there is a little difference in nerve response to circumcised vs non-circumsized. That being said that's only average... as some people are not affected at all, and generally the effect is only minimal. In my world it makes no difference. There is absolutely no doubt that circumcision helps fight all kinds of VD's, and hygiene helps but it doesn't cover it all. Why don't they have it done as adults? Because more nerve endings, blood flow, and development occurs there as you get older. Adult circumcision can be an almost crippling experience, but when done as a youth minimal pain, and minimal recovery time. Some gay people prefer one way or another and sometimes gay men get it done... most take a week off of work, and are in tons of pain. So if YOU ARE thinking its a good idea get it done young, and if you don't want to likely you will be fine anyway about it. And the biggest part... if you go to San Francisco the boys will like you both ways LOL LOL LOL:gaychase:

    This is the end of the thread as far as I am concerned, I dont think many of us can claim to have as much "hands on experiance in the penis world".

    I am officially shutting my ears to what anyone else has to say, Awatarius wins the thread.

    :rockwoot:

    All I can say is, if my wife will give a beej to one type, and not the other, then I am DARNED GLAD I got the kind she prefers.
     

    rjstew317

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    This is the end of the thread as far as I am concerned, I dont think many of us can claim to have as much "hands on experiance in the penis world".

    I am officially shutting my ears to what anyone else has to say, Awatarius wins the thread.

    :rockwoot:

    All I can say is, if my wife will give a beej to one type, and not the other, then I am DARNED GLAD I got the kind she prefers.
    Well, I've been handling one for going on 33 years (my own of course) so I think that would darn near make me an expert! :D
     

    dom1104

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    Well, I've been handling one for going on 33 years (my own of course) so I think that would darn near make me an expert! :D

    An expert with a subject field of one. :)

    Its like being able to shoot only your Glock, and nobody elses Glock, and ONLY your Glock 26, and not, for instance, my Glock 17L.
     

    rjstew317

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    An expert with a subject field of one. :)

    Its like being able to shoot only your Glock, and nobody elses Glock, and ONLY your Glock 26, and not, for instance, my Glock 17L.
    To me it's the only one that matters. When the times comes, I won't be using yours :):
     

    chraland51

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    I do not know what is the right side to be on for this topic. I am since that was just what was done to male babies back in 1951. I had an uncle who was only 3 years older than me and he was not. No matter how good his personal hygiene, he was always having one type of trouble or another. He had the procedure done when he was 24 right before a bunch of the family went on a vacation together at another relative's cottage in northern Indiana. My poor uncle went through heck and had to wear a big beach towel around him without any underwear for the entire week due to his discomfort. It took him a few weeks before he was back in action. He said it felt different, but did not make him feel like a French or Italian Cassanova.

    This is nothing even remotely like the forced female mutilation done to young girls in mostly moslem countries so that they will receive no pleasure from having sex.
     

    Fletch

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    I do not know what is the right side to be on for this topic. I am since that was just what was done to male babies back in 1951. I had an uncle who was only 3 years older than me and he was not. No matter how good his personal hygiene, he was always having one type of trouble or another. He had the procedure done when he was 24 right before a bunch of the family went on a vacation together at another relative's cottage in northern Indiana. My poor uncle went through heck and had to wear a big beach towel around him without any underwear for the entire week due to his discomfort. It took him a few weeks before he was back in action. He said it felt different, but did not make him feel like a French or Italian Cassanova.

    This is nothing even remotely like the forced female mutilation done to young girls in mostly moslem countries so that they will receive no pleasure from having sex.
    At least your uncle had a choice.
     
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