vote on banning male circumcision - Only In California

[dom1104]

It is odd that many just follow along with tradition, no matter how barbaric.

You know what is odd? Someone said this exact sentence to me not even 5 minutes ago relating to hunting.

THAT was a deja-vu moment.

 

[Zephri]

I am starting to get a very odd feeling that.....

This is turning into a giant swordfight, debating who has the better johnson.

I am starting to get... uncomfortable.

It really seems that some people feel strongly on this.

Which to me, is odd.

Has more to do with "don't alter my body unless I say so"
",which newborns have no say so, there in lays the problem.

If I had a choice I'd say "get that knife the hell away from me before I break your face!"

 

[Fletch]

I am starting to get a very odd feeling that.....

This is turning into a giant swordfight, debating who has the better johnson.

I am starting to get... uncomfortable.

It really seems that some people feel strongly on this.

Which to me, is odd.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S25Zf8svHZQ[/ame]

 

[LEaSH]

I don't think California would be able to conceive of ending the bris (which is not usually performed in a sterile environment to begin with), so what are they wasting their time for?

 

[BigMatt]

Get the government out of parenting. We have been going it pretty well for a long time without their help.

 

[rjstew317]

FAIL...where is the data?

Brunner & suddarths textbook of medical-surgical nursing by smeltzer.
You can't start there, of any number of other medical textbooks.

 

[revsaxon]

I have issues with the whole concept of cutting on babies junk to begin with, but something that needs to be legislated? Can anyone say government over-reach much? I can just see it now, back-alley brises, parents being hauled infront a tribunal for violation of kalifornian law, young men having their first sexual experience cut short by swat teams bursting thru windows to arrest them because of their illegal cut... you know, maybe this is a good thing. Will make for some excellent television in 15-20 years.

 

[Fletch]

I have issues with the whole concept of cutting on babies junk to begin with, but something that needs to be legislated? Can anyone say government over-reach much?

I approach it from the perspective that protecting property rights is a legitimate function of government, and our bodies are our primary tangible property. Punishing aggression against those property rights would therefore be a reasonable thing to support.

 

[ElsiePeaRN]

FAIL...where is the data?

Here's one recent study. I know there are more older studies, I just can't find them at the moment.

Effect of circumcision of HIV-negative men on transmission of human papillomavirus to HIV-negative women: a randomised trial in Rakai, Uganda : The Lancet

ETA: http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/factsheets/circumcision.htm

My two brothers and I didn't get butchered and have not even once had any type of issues you speak of...hygiene is key.

If we're giving any weight to anecdotal evidence, then I'll weigh in in favor of allowing circumcision. In over two decades as a nurse, I have seen some medical issues in non-circumcised men that would send most men directly to the urologist begging for a circumcision if they saw it. Not that I have a lot of evidence but in my own healthcare experience every penile health issue I have seen requiring hospitalization was in uncircumcised men.

I don't have strong opinions on the matter, but do not believe this is a barbaric custom that needs to be abolished. As in most things, there are two sides to the story and IMO, parents should be allowed the choice.

 

[BigMatt]

Ok, so we will have to wait until the kid is 18 so they can give permission to be circumcised. Will we have to wait until they are 18 to get anything done to them? What about vaccinations? What about spanking them?

Parents have been doing all of these things for years without their kids' permission. There are legitimate medical, social and religious reasons for doing these things. Why are they all of the sudden a bad thing?

I approach it from the perspective that protecting property rights is a legitimate function of government, and our bodies are our primary tangible property. Punishing aggression against those property rights would therefore be a reasonable thing to support.

 

[Paco Bedejo]

Is that OK too? I mean, it probably helps with posture or something, right?

Personally, I feel that child body modifications shouldn't be done. I wouldn't pierce a child's ears, put plates in their lips, cut their penis or clitoris, bind their feet, force them onto an unnatural vegan diet, etc.

I would support legislation to prevent parents modifying their children's bodies prior to those children being of sound mind to give consent. After reading on the issue, I truly wish that my parents hadn't had me 'cut'. I don't boil with resentment or anything, but I do recognize that 'intimate' time would be much more enjoyable. It's the only non-medical body-modification which has been done to me & it was w/out my consent.

If you're worried about HPV or bacteria...teach your sons not to sleep around & how to use a washcloth.

 

[dom1104]

I approach it from the perspective that protecting property rights is a legitimate function of government, and our bodies are our primary tangible property. Punishing aggression against those property rights would therefore be a reasonable thing to support.

Your right.
We should ban alcohol too.
That would probably work out great.

 

[Fletch]

Your right.
We should ban alcohol too.
That would probably work out great.

How does that even relate to the subject at hand?

If you had people taking infants and force-feeding them whiskey, I could see a parallel, but that's not the issue. The issue is forcible, permanent mutilation, without consent.

 

[rambone]

Circumcision vs. Vaccination

I chalk this up to parental right to decide their child's health care. No new laws.


However! To those who support a ban, I think vaccinations are a good analogy to contend with. Can you conclude one should be banned and the other should not? Vaccines:

• Human civilization survived for tens of thousands of years without them.
• Many people feel they are barbaric.
• There is documented and admitted dangers to administering them. (Brain damage, death, seizures, neurological disorders... and less obvious long term effects).
• They are not necessary.
• The child can give no consent.
• Invasive procedures given without consent can be viewed as an act of force against another.

Now, with all that said, I still feel its a parent's duty to decide. I'm against vaccinating my family, but I support others rights to make a different decision. I'd rather get people to see the light for themselves.

Bans aren't really appropriate for circumcision or for vaccinations. And banning these procedures would create a black market, would it not?

If you are against these practices, you should advocate against them using education. Stick it to Big Pharma and Big Scalpel using the free market.

BTW, gun forums are good places to expose bad medicine.

 

[eldirector]

If you believe that circumcision is tantamount to assault, then simply charge the doctor/parents with assault. We do not need any additional laws.

So, does this mean my daughter can't have pierced ears until she is 18? No elective surgeries? Where is the new line? Should I just turn my kid over to the state, since "you all" know what's best now?

 

[ElsiePeaRN]

The issue is forcible, permanent mutilation, without consent.

I've always struggled with this idea of applying "propery rights" to children's bodies as a rationale for government action to protect them.

For lack of a better example at the moment, what if forcing a child to eat peas causes them psychological damage? Giving vaccinations can leave a scar, etc. Parents have to force their will on children all the time. I think it's too difficult to draw a line. Ah... a better example: Some parents will go ahead and have a child's adenoids removed as an elective procedure during a tonsillectomy as a preventative measure for things like recurrent ear infections or sleep apnea. This is a permanent mutilation without consent, but would you oppose this as well?

 

[Paco Bedejo]

I think vaccinations are a good analogy to contend with.

How many children have died because of their foreskins? Yeah yeah, HPV...well, if children are getting HPV because of their foreskins, then some other laws are being broken. Otherwise, it's a simple matter of hygiene. Irreversible body modifications to save 10 seconds in the bath are NOT analogous with vaccinations which help us to fend of deadly viruses.

 

[dross]

I chalk this up to parental right to decide their child's health care. No new laws.


However! To those who support a ban, I think vaccinations are a good analogy to contend with. Can you conclude one should be banned and the other should not? Vaccines:

• Human civilization survived for tens of thousands of years without them.
• Many people feel they are barbaric.
• There is documented and admitted dangers to administering them. (Brain damage, death, seizures, neurological disorders... and less obvious long term effects).
• They are not necessary.
• The child can give no consent.
• Invasive procedures given without consent can be viewed as an act of force against another.

Now, with all that said, I still feel its a parent's duty to decide. I'm against vaccinating my family, but I support others rights to make a different decision. I'd rather get people to see the light for themselves.

Bans aren't really appropriate for circumcision or for vaccinations. And banning these procedures would create a black market, would it not?

If you are against these practices, you should advocate against them using education. Stick it to Big Pharma and Big Scalpel using the free market.

BTW, gun forums are good places to expose bad medicine.

Should the government stay out of female circumcision? Let's say the full circumcision practiced in some countries, clitoris, labia, and partial closing of the opening so intercourse is rendered not just pleasure free, but painful.

You don't think government has a legitimate interest in regulating that?

And please, spare me the tap dance and just answer.

 

[ATF Consumer]

How many children have died because of their foreskins? Yeah yeah, HPV...well, if children are getting HPV because of their foreskins, then some other laws are being broken. Otherwise, it's a simple matter of hygiene. Irreversible body modifications to save 10 seconds in the bath are NOT analogous with vaccinations which help us to fend of deadly viruses.

This is sort of like gun control...just because we have a few cases of bad stuff happening with guns, we want to take all guns away.

Don't take away foreskin because of a few bad cases...

If you support the 2nd Amendment, you should support foreskin.

 

[rambone]

How many children have died because of their foreskins? Yeah yeah, HPV...well, if children are getting HPV because of their foreskins, then some other laws are being broken. Otherwise, it's a simple matter of hygiene. Irreversible body modifications to save 10 seconds in the bath are NOT analogous with vaccinations which help us to fend of deadly viruses.

I don't want to derail the whole thread, but vaccines can be pretty irreversible as well.

Ian's Voice

Both, to me, represent a calculated risk that I would rather leave up to parents.