Voluntarily disarming at a gun show

[DRob]

That is funny

Yes, but for those who do not break the rule of "concealment", there is no danger or harm done outside of the occurrence of a defensive encounter. I'm detecting a tinge of "carry envy" from the rule followers.

I CC all the time........except where the person in charge of the property I'm entering says I can't. If you want your rights to be respected you should respect the rights of others. It isn't a one way street.

 

[EliteYK]

Worked at a pawn shop in Florida that bought and sold firearms. It was posted that no one was to enter with a loaded weapon but I can't tell you how many times I had a customer hand me a loaded weapon. We would typically unload it, hand it back to them and ask them to take their business elsewhere. The chain had a few very disastrous incidents over the years and eventually stopped dealing in firearms altogether. I know that one involved an employee shooting another employee with a rifle that was handed to him ready to fire. I don't know the caliber, but from 15 feet away, anything is serious. Another involved a young man asking to see a .38 revolver from the sales case, the clerk checked that it was unloaded and handed it to the customer. While the clerk explained the advantages of the piece the customer seemed to be confirming that the gun was unloaded but in fact used a speed loader to drop six rounds into the gun so he and his friends could steal all the cash and jewelry.

 

[KoopaKGB]

Worked at a pawn shop in Florida that bought and sold firearms. It was posted that no one was to enter with a loaded weapon but I can't tell you how many times I had a customer hand me a loaded weapon. We would typically unload it, hand it back to them and ask them to take their business elsewhere. The chain had a few very disastrous incidents over the years and eventually stopped dealing in firearms altogether. I know that one involved an employee shooting another employee with a rifle that was handed to him ready to fire. I don't know the caliber, but from 15 feet away, anything is serious. Another involved a young man asking to see a .38 revolver from the sales case, the clerk checked that it was unloaded and handed it to the customer. While the clerk explained the advantages of the piece the customer seemed to be confirming that the gun was unloaded but in fact used a speed loader to drop six rounds into the gun so he and his friends could steal all the cash and jewelry.

Firearm dealing seems to be an inherently risky business. That’s too bad that so many unfortunate incidents occurred that derailed his business.

 

[Spazzmodicus]

Criminals with ill intent don't follow rules. From that perspective, following rules can get you killed. I don't CC to follow or not follow rules. I carry so I can hopefully stay alive if the fit hits the shan iside the venue. What would you do if somebody whipped out a knife when you went to take a leak? Show him the cool zip tie on the gun he's intent on taking from you, along with your cash and very life? If your survival instincts doesn't rise above the level of "herded animal" then you're just another bovine waiting for the slaughter. Sometimes, cowbows are needed among the cattle. May sound brash and irresponsible, but that's probably just an indication of one's status of "comfortably numb". Don't cry because some choose to not take a nap along with the rest of the group.

 

[pleiades]

I CC all the time........except where the person in charge of the property I'm entering says I can't. If you want your rights to be respected you should respect the rights of others.

Sooooo.... you (not "you" but those who think along these lines) don't CC at Buffalo Wild Wings, a bar, a sporting event, etc? Any sign that says "no weapons" you don't enter CC'ing?

 

[jcwit]

Yes, but for those who do not break the rule of "concealment", there is no danger or harm done outside of the occurrence of a defensive encounter. I'm detecting a tinge of "carry envy" from the rule followers.

That in itself is an irresponsible statement, by you not personally knowing the posters here how can you even make that assumption, and you know what assuming does, do you not? In my case I've had my license for decades, "envy" don't think so.

Sooooo.... you (not "you" but those who think along these lines) don't CC at Buffalo Wild Wings, a bar, a sporting event, etc? Any sign that says "no weapons" you don't enter CC'ing?

Yup! Thats how rules work. By not obeying them in the end the rules turn into laws and eventually hurt/hinder everyone. Not obeying rules and laws leads directly to anarchy and nihilism "look it up". This seems to be one of the problems with our current culture, in other words no matter what the rule/law the attitude is "I'll do it my way".

 

[ryan3030]

I'll say what I always say on this topic - if you're properly concealing your carry there is no reason to disarm. Sorry to guys who like to OC, you're out of luck on this one.

"Don't mess with your gun unless you need to draw" should go without saying.

 

[jcwit]

I'll say what I always say on this topic - if you're properly concealing your carry there is no reason to disarm. Sorry to guys who like to OC, you're out of luck on this one.

So in other words it all about you and your total disregard of the rules. Do you also treat the traffic rules in the same way?

Like I said earlier
By not obeying them in the end the rules turn into laws and eventually hurt/hinder everyone. Not obeying rules and laws leads directly to anarchy and nihilism "look it up". This seems to be one of the problems with our current culture, in other words no matter what the rule/law is the attitude is "I'll do it my way".

If you do not like the rule/law, work at getting it changed, not breaking it.

 

[Birds Away]

After reading these posts I now have to reconsider the wisdom of going to the 1500. It would be just my luck to be around when some self-styled "cowboy" decided we all needed his protection, whipped out his Lorcins and started blazing away.

 

[DRob]

You got me!

Sooooo.... you (not "you" but those who think along these lines) don't CC at Buffalo Wild Wings, a bar, a sporting event, etc? Any sign that says "no weapons" you don't enter CC'ing?

Yep, that exactly! If I know the place prohibits firearms, I either don't go there or don't carry there. I believe those who choose to ignore the prohibitions are showing a disrespect they claim they don't tolerate from anybody else. I think the applicable word is hypocrisy.

Since this was started about BWW, I don't frequent the place but the few times I've been there, I didn't see any such sign. I'll look for it next time.

 

[Spazzmodicus]

Yes, but for those who do not break the rule of "concealment", there is no danger or harm done outside of the occurrence of a defensive encounter. I'm detecting a tinge of "carry envy" from the rule followers.

That in itself is an irresponsible statement, by you not personally knowing the posters here how can you even make that assumption, and you know what assuming does, do you not? In my case I've had my license for decades, "envy" don't think so.

No need to know anybody personally to come to the logical conclusion that if a weapon stays in it's holster, no harm or accident will come of it. Newsflash!: That's what the "rule of concealment" means. Negligent discharges come from 'guns in hands' or 'hands on guns'. Rarely they come from guns falling from holsters.

I have no problem having faith in my fellow CC brothers/sisters to possess enough intelligence and subtlety to know how to keep their weapons holstered, out of sight and out of mind. Concealed means concealed. IMHO at no time is "show and tell" permissible.

But it's elitists like yourself who seems to have the problem granting responsibility to individuals who doesn't readily lobotomize their own free will and become a robot to the nearest rule-maker, gladly neutering or abandoning their firearm. You've had your carry permit for decades? Thanks for the astounding and pathetic example of how "time in the saddle" doesn't mean a dadburned thing. That's even more reason why you should be listening to the voice of history and experience. Are you content to eventually become a numeric statistic just like all the other folks over the years whom were 'following the rules' and paid for it? Have you never heard that every rule has an exception?

Sooooo.... you (not "you" but those who think along these lines) don't CC at Buffalo Wild Wings, a bar, a sporting event, etc? Any sign that says "no weapons" you don't enter CC'ing?

Yup! Thats how rules work. By not obeying them in the end the rules turn into laws and eventually hurt/hinder everyone. Not obeying rules and laws leads directly to anarchy and nihilism "look it up". This seems to be one of the problems with our current culture, in other words no matter what the rule/law the attitude is "I'll do it my way".

Hitler disarmed a large part of Germany with rules and laws. Wouldn't have a little bit of anarchy been good in that situation? Please tell me you don't think so. If today the Queerless Leader in the WH were to make new rules and laws leading to gun confiscation, are you just going to gladly hand all your firearms over, because that's what law abiding citizens like yourself does? That led directly to death for many in Germany.

When entering an establishment that bans loaded weapons, you depend on others to guarantee your safety by voluntarily disarming. How is 'becoming dependent upon others to guarantee your safety' congruent with the purposes of carrying and self-defense? How is voluntarily disarming a deterrent to crime? That is one of the purposes of carrying a firearm, right? Being a deterrent to crime?

Is it a good idea to follow the "no guns" rules of establishments just so some thug not following any rules at all can come in and gun you, your friends or family down? Is that what dependents do? Depend on property owners and managers for their own safety? How is that "OK" to abandon one's responsibility for personal protection and hang that responsibility on somebody else? Now THAT's what I call highly irresponsible, and naive.
I submit the above responses bt jcwit as proof that those with a few years on them can still be naive.

George Washington said it the best: "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Hitler disarmed a large part of Germany with rules and laws. [/B]

..and of course we all know that a local business owner posting a "no firearms" sign is the exact same thing as Nazi Germany.

 

[Spazzmodicus]

..and of course we all know that a local business owner posting a "no firearms" sign is the exact same thing as Nazi Germany.

Of course not, but to career criminals it is the same thing as hanging a sign that says "Free Money".

 

[JettaKnight]

Criminals with ill intent don't follow rules. From that perspective, following rules can get you killed. I don't CC to follow or not follow rules. I carry so I can hopefully stay alive if the fit hits the shan iside the venue. What would you do if somebody whipped out a knife when you went to take a leak? Show him the cool zip tie on the gun he's intent on taking from you, along with your cash and very life? If your survival instincts doesn't rise above the level of "herded animal" then you're just another bovine waiting for the slaughter. Sometimes, cowboys are needed among the cattle. May sound brash and irresponsible, but that's probably just an indication of one's status of "comfortably numb". Don't cry because some choose to not take a nap along with the rest of the group.

I'm soooo glad I have you to protect me.

If someone "whips out a knife while you're taking a leak" you better be thinking of some other form of SD rather than your gun. With talk like that, I'm more worried about you pulling out guns when they see "the fits hits the shan" in a crowded venue.

The difference between you and me is that I know I'm not skilled (or rash) enough to engage in a gun fight in a venue like that. I also realize that, statistically speaking, the risk of a ND outweighs the risk of fowl play at a gun show.

 

[JettaKnight]

I have no problem having faith in my fellow CC brothers/sisters to possess enough intelligence and subtlety to know how to keep their weapons holstered, out of sight and out of mind. Concealed means concealed. IMHO at no time is "show and tell" permissible.

If only everyone would have this mindset.

Hitler disarmed a large part of Germany with rules and laws.
...

Argumentum ad Hitlerum

Sooooo.... you (not "you" but those who think along these lines) don't CC at Buffalo Wild Wings, a bar, a sporting event, etc? Any sign that says "no weapons" you don't enter CC'ing?

When entering an establishment that bans loaded weapons, you depend on others to guarantee your safety by voluntarily disarming. How is 'becoming dependent upon others to guarantee your safety' congruent with the purposes of carrying and self-defense? How is voluntarily disarming a deterrent to crime? That is one of the purposes of carrying a firearm, right? Being a deterrent to crime?

This is worth posting again. There's a clear difference in the reasoning and purpose for a "no loaded weapons" sign at a gun show and one at Crapplebees.

A restaurant / office / bank post those signs out of fear and a fallacy to it will prevent violence.

A gun show has those signs because of a knowledge of their clientel and a desire for safety from ND's, not in an effort to prevent violence.

If you do choose to carry at a gun show because your desire for control and personal protection trumps all, then be discrete and don't brag about it on INGO, please.

PS - Spaz, don't go around posting misquotes from the first president.

 

[jcwit]

Spass, you sure think highly of your self and then you refer to me as "elitists".

Looks as if DRob nailed it with "hypocrisy".

Seriously wonder just how many hits you could actually do in a real firefight. Ah, thats hits on the bad guy and not in the crowd. But then lets hope we never need to find out.

 

[Spazzmodicus]

Spass, you sure think highly of your self and then you refer to me as "elitists".

Looks as if DRob nailed it with "hypocrisy".

Seriously wonder just how many hits you could actually do in a real firefight. Ah, thats hits on the bad guy and not in the crowd. But then lets hope we never need to find out.

No, I choose to remain prepared. I simply want to be left alone when I go here or there. If you want to disarm then great! But don't tell me I need to. Elitists want to tell everybody else what to do and use the pecking order on them when they don't fall in line, ganging up and pecking away feverishly....hahahah.

Drob was responding to somebody else, and you're putting words in my mouth. I never said I didn't tolerate anything. I walk through the same door concealed as do those disarming themselves. And just as those who volunteer to disarm themselves, I volunteer to remain armed. Apparently for the time being, the circumstances and venues allow for it. Maybe not intentionally but they do.

How many shots into the bad guy? If your level of marksmanship doesn't give you the confidence needed to actually defend yourself in the real world, then I think we see the real problem in this grand equation. Many who carry weapons are genuinely not prepared for a life and death encounter. Therefore I can surely appreciate your "firearm abandonment" perspective. Makes perfect sense to me now and I am very grateful for your type's voluntarily disarmament. "I'll gladly take off my gun anytime you ask me to because I'm not really prepared to use it, even if I had to".

You might think about some advanced training if you're going to carry. Loading ammo, putting it on your hip and hitting a few targets at the range every once in a while ain't good enough. It gets you nowhere towards real preparation. And if you're not attempting some level of real life preparation and training, then why are you carrying? For show?

Some are training or have trained. Some are prepared. Don't read into my words, you're own level of training, or lack of it.

 

[Spazzmodicus]

I'm soooo glad I have you to protect me.

Apparently you choose to remain unprotected in that you gladly jettison your self-defense responsibility to somebody else. I carry to protect *ME* not you.

If someone "whips out a knife while you're taking a leak" you better be thinking of some other form of SD rather than your gun. With talk like that, I'm more worried about you pulling out guns when they see "the fits hits the shan" in a crowded venue.

Suit yourself. Ignorance is bliss.

The difference between you and me is that I know I'm not skilled (or rash) enough to engage in a gun fight in a venue like that. I also realize that, statistically speaking, the risk of a ND outweighs the risk of fowl play at a gun show.

No no, you said it right the first time. You're not skilled. Nothing else needs to be said. Your lack of skill is not my problem. It's yours, and it's also your responsibility. Don't expect everybody else to live and abide by your own confessed level of unpreparedness and non-skill.

Again we see another 'rule follower' is somebody that is unprepared for a real encounter and actually should not be carrying a gun at all. Not at all surprising.

 

[Spazzmodicus]

PS - Spaz, don't go around posting misquotes from the first president.

Yeah you got me here. I didn't realize it was a bogus quote. But it's a good 'bogus' quote...heh heh.

 

[jcwit]

How many shots into the bad guy? If your level of marksmanship doesn't give you the confidence needed to actually defend yourself in the real world, then I think we see the real problem in this grand equation. Many who carry weapons are genuinely not prepared for a life and death encounter. Therefore I can surely appreciate your "firearm abandonment" perspective. Makes perfect sense to me now and I am very grateful for your type's voluntarily disarmament. "I'll gladly take off my gun anytime you ask me to because I'm not really prepared to use it, even if I had to".

You might think about some advanced training if you're going to carry. Loading ammo, putting it on your hip and hitting a few targets at the range every once in a while ain't good enough. It gets you nowhere towards real preparation. And if you're not attempting some level of real life preparation and training, then why are you carrying? For show?

After wearing our countries uniform for 8 years I more than feel capable of hitting what I aim at even under stress. Your above reply comes very close to an insult, being as you do not know me is the only thing keeping it from being one.

You really seem to be more than full on yourself, and your thinking to make up your own rules. Conceited is the word.