VIDEO - Officers threatens to execute Ohio CCW holder

[Hayseed_40]

But if you like, it is quite easy to find lots and lots of evidence of police looking the other way.

Probably true - do not know firsthand.

But there is also lots of evidence of the opposite - good cops turning in bad cops. I do know this first hand.

 

[Rookie]

Just to level the field and show you that I get it from both sides, I'm now taking crap from at least two cops, both of which have now claimed that they've quit the board as a result of me publicly condemning that criminal officer.

To clarify AGAIN, that was, in no way, meant to be criticism. My point was that we had a huge thread about cop bashing and your comments were directly in line with a lot of comments that us cop bashers have made. I absolutely agree with your comments and I don't think you can honestly be labeled as a cop basher. So, the question is, do we have a rampant problem of cop bashers or a problem of officers unwilling to listen to criticism.

 

[Scutter01]

To clarify AGAIN, that was, in no way, meant to be criticism. My point was that we had a huge thread about cop bashing and your comments were directly in line with a lot of comments that us cop bashers have made. I absolutely agree with your comments and I don't think you can honestly be labeled as a cop basher. So, the question is, do we have a rampant problem of cop bashers or a problem of officers unwilling to listen to criticism.

I don't want to either derail this thread or get into too much detail, but I'll respond this way:

I apologize if you took that to mean I thought you were giving me crap. I understand that it was gentle ribbing and that you were making a point. I did not have a problem with it. I used it merely to illustrate my own point that regardless of my position, I'm going to have someone pointing it out to me; sometimes nicely, sometimes...not so nicely.

As for the "problem of rampant cop bashing", the answer is yes. There is a pervasive impression, both on INGO and on other unrelated sites on the Internet, from LEO and non-LEO alike, that INGO is the place to go to ***** about cops. That's why I've put so much into keeping it at bay (although mostly failing miserably at it). I will not provide more detail and I will not add to any discussion about it. You'll just have to trust me that what I'm telling you is the truth.

It's possible to criticize the actions of individual officers without painting the entire profession as evil. I've tried hard to do so in this thread and even asked for examples of where I have failed so that I can address that failure in an appropriate manner, as an adult. Unfortunately, many officers (including many here on INGO) see any criticism as an attack on all cops. Likewise, many members use INGO as a sounding board for their personal vendettas and agendas (on a number of issues, as a matter of fact, but that's immaterial).

 

[IndyBeerman]

According to the victim's lawyer, the prosecuting attorney offered to drop the charges in exchange for agreement not to sue and a suppression of the video. That's called "extortion". There is no possible way that the attorney made that offer without the knowledge of the Chief. There's your blind eye. If the video hadn't been released, there would have been 17 IA investigations and this guy would still be on the street offering to murder drivers.

DING DING DING

We haaaaaaave a winnnnnnnnnnnner!

I'm a firm believer that there should be a third party with no cards or money in the game to investigate officers whose actions like this cause widespread problems for both LEO's and the public. This way the results can not be favored one way or another.


Now about any LEO who is Butt (*)Hurt about this, if you can't admit that this officer is a disgrace to the very uniform you wear on a daily basis, then you either have the blinders on WAY to tight, or you have the blue line so far up your backside that you have sub consciously decided that there is a them against us mentality and need to re-evaluate your current job decision, maybe transferring to a Blackwater unit operating under secret orders in Iraq is more your style.

 

[public servant]

I have to assume they're bad for my own safety.

You know...in the 3+ years I've been here I've had nothing but the utmost repsect for you. Still do. And I mean no disrespect. But because I think you're wrong in this instance, I have to ask you...

I hauled a black man to jail the other night that robbed an old lady at knife point. Am I supposed to then make the assumption that all black men are bad for my own safety?

See what happens when you ass u me?

I don't see any LEO on this site defending the cop in the video. I also don't see them being lumped in with him. I've worked too hard for the reputation I have to stand quietly for that.

 

[Silverado]

I'm sorry that one of your brothers has done something so heinous that I can no longer trust any cop.

Can you no longer trust any Muslim after 9/11?

Black people are responsible for an inordinately high amount of crime in proportion to their population. (FACT, not racist) Do you not trust black people now?

The Catholic church has produced more than a few pedophile priests. Are they all pedophiles?

And you wonder why INGO is known far and wide as a haven for cop bashers. Maybe you just need to ban cops from INGO, since your official stance is that you don't trust ANY of them. And you wonder why the "us vs. them" attitude exists.

 

[Rookie]

You know...in the 3+ years I've been here I've had nothing but the utmost repsect for you. Still do. And I mean no disrespect. But because I think you're wrong in this instance, I have to ask you...

I hauled a black man to jail the other night that robbed an old lady at knife point. Am I supposed to then make the assumption that all black men are bad for my own safety?

See what happens when you ass u me?

I don't see any LEO on this site defending the cop in the video. I also don't see them being lumped in with him. I've worked too hard for the reputation I have to stand quietly for that.

I'll ask you a question. When you pull anyone over, do you approach them thinking you're going to interact with a respectful law abiding citizen or are you prepared for the worst?

 

[Scutter01]

I hauled a black man to jail the other night that robbed an old lady at knife point. Am I supposed to then make the assumption that all black men are bad for my own safety?

Do you not assume that every person (regardless of race) that you stop has the potential to murder you? If not, don't you find that a highly dangerous position to take?


I don't have the luxury of being protected by the color of law. The police can do things under the protection of state statute, police procedures, and the unions that no non-officer would ever get away with. A perfect example is Officer Harless. If the victim had made ANY of those threatening statements to him, he would now be charged with any number of additional offenses. He wouldn't be put on six week's paid vacation while everyone stopped to try to decide if he did anything wrong. He'd be sitting in a prison cell, fired from his job and unable to provide for his family. Even if he were exonerated, his life would still never be the same. His life would be destroyed.

When I'm stopped, it's by a person who literally has the power to destroy my life (or worse) just because he may have had a bad day, or worse, because he may be a sociopath or a control-freak. My only option is to comply 100%, even if that compliance means I have to accept 10 bullets into my torso for officer safety. ANY other response means an automatic destruction of my life and the well-being of my family as I will be instantly jailed (or worse) and put through the wringer by an absolutely ruthless and uncaring system that irrationally equates "convictions" with "justice". I clearly cannot count on the good graces of the person approaching me. Does that mean I should speed away, firing my pistol wildly at the bogey man in my rear window? Of course not. That would be ludicrous and insane. However, I can take significant precautions to protect myself and my family by always carrying a recording device, installing my own dash and trunk cams, and maybe even dialing 911 every time I get pulled over to report a possible maniac at my window, just so there's a record of it (even though I can't trust that the record won't mysteriously vanish).

 

[Bill of Rights]

Guys, there is a big, big difference between what Scutter said and what Public Servant and Silverado said. As LEOs, you have an enormous public trust; this you all know well and I'm telling neither you nor anyone else anything new. You have, as a result of that badge, the power to take away someone's freedom or to even take their life with d*** near impunity. You have a presumption of truth in court; If this video did not exist and it was the word of those three citizens (two of whom have criminal records, IIUC, and the third being the accused in this case) vs. the two officers, who would have been believed, had the driver told EXACTLY what happened on the tape and the officers told a story that was in any way different?

That that level of power is granted someone, and that person either abuses it or tolerates others who do so is indeed concerning. If a Black or a Muslim person commits a crime, then that person is guilty of his crime. Likewise, if an officer of the law commits a crime, that officer is the guilty party... but are not the other officers who know he did it and said nothing (if they didn't) also accessories to his crime?

I've used the example that I used to work with a medic (not on the same truck) who was caught abusing narcotics... including the supply she signed for when she came on shift. When it was discovered that it was possible she was doing so, she was very quickly suspended, investigated, and terminated. She was also reported to the local police, arrested, tried, and sentenced. She is now a convicted felon and will never, ever work as a paramedic again. That's a real shame, because she was one HELL of a medic. (There is much more to this story, but these are the salient points.)

We use the descriptive term "police your own". It was not LEOs who discovered this problem, nor was it LE who started proceedings against her. It was people whose own reputation and profession was jeopardized by the public perception of her actions.

I am hopeful that this illustration will help on both sides.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[public servant]

Do you not assume that every person (regardless of race) that you stop has the potential to murder you? If not, don't you find that a highly dangerous position to take?


I don't have the luxury of being protected by the color of law. The police can do things under the protection of state statute, police procedures, and the unions that no non-officer would ever get away with. A perfect example is Officer Harless. If the victim had made ANY of those threatening statements to him, he would now be charged with any number of additional offenses. He wouldn't be put on six week's paid vacation while everyone stopped to try to decide if he did anything wrong. He'd be sitting in a prison cell, fired from his job and unable to provide for his family. Even if he were exonerated, his life would still never be the same. His life would be destroyed.

When I'm stopped, it's by a person who literally has the power to destroy my life (or worse) just because he may have had a bad day, or worse, because he may be a sociopath or a control-freak. My only option is to comply 100%, even if that compliance means I have to accept 10 bullets into my torso for officer safety. ANY other response means an automatic destruction of my life and the well-being of my family as I will be instantly jailed (or worse) and put through the wringer by an absolutely ruthless and uncaring system that irrationally equates "convictions" with "justice". I clearly cannot count on the good graces of the person approaching me. Does that mean I should speed away, firing my pistol wildly at the bogey man in my rear window? Of course not. That would be ludicrous and insane. However, I can take significant precautions to protect myself and my family by always carrying a recording device, installing my own dash and trunk cams, and maybe even dialing 911 every time I get pulled over to report a possible maniac at my window, just so there's a record of it (even though I can't trust that the record won't mysteriously vanish).

I do understand your position. And I do not totally disagree with you. I understand being cautious. But to say we cannot be trusted is a slap in the face.

But do you not see you've successfully painted us all in the same light as Harness? I know what kind of person I am. And I am nothing like Harness.

Meh...I don't know why I bother. I won't change you opinion and you won't change mine. No respect lost.

As for me however...I guess I never had it in the first place. You can't respect someone you do not trust.

 

[Roadie]

No one? Surely they're out there. I've been raked over the coals enough that I MUST have said SOMETHING.

Scutter, this situation is exactly like the "you are a racist because you don't like Obama" crap. You can't win, sadly.

You are pointing out the actions of two Officers who we have ON VIDEO committing obvious crimes that you or I would be in jail for, AND you are pointing out that there are Officers defending those actions, in spite of the video.

No generalizations there at all, except those in the minds of certain Officers that are not seeing the forest for the trees.

 

[Scutter01]

I do understand your position. And I do not totally disagree with you. I understand being cautious. But to say we cannot be trusted is a slap in the face.

But do you not see you've successfully painted us all in the same light as Harness? I know what kind of person I am. And I am nothing like Harness.

Meh...I don't know why I bother. I won't change you opinion and you won't change mine. No respect lost.

As for me however...I guess I never had it in the first place. You can't respect someone you do not trust.

You say that you're nothing like Harless and because I know you in particular, I believe you. However, I don't know your partner. Or the other officers in your squad. Or the next one that stops me for legally open-carrying on the sidewalk who decides he needs to prone me out for officer safety. Or the one after that who blasts me in the face or takes two steps back and puts ten rounds into me.

What I'm saying is that I cannot afford to automatically trust all police officers just because they wear a shield. I need to start treating them the way I treat any non-LEO I meet: 99% of them are going to smile and wave, ask me to have a nice day, but I need to assume that there is at least one in that bunch that's going to attempt to destroy me and I have no way of knowing which one it's going to be.

Unless, of course, you can unconditionally guarantee to me that Officer Harless was absolutely the last "bad apple", that all the departments are clean now, for realsies this time.

 

[Scutter01]

Scutter, this situation is exactly like the "you are a racist because you don't like Obama" crap. You can't win, sadly.

I refuse to even address the "race" comparisons. They're a straw-man argument at best and will do nothing but derail the conversation. I will ignore them completely, so don't waste your time even bringing them up.

 

[long coat]

I'll take generalizations for $1000, Alex. I would like to see this clear evidence that other cops turn their blind eye.

Here is one.
Birmingham police beating video: Five officers fired | al.com
"has been seen by numerous Birmingham officers and up to a half dozen supervisors over the past year. But top city and police officials weren't made aware of the taped beating until they were contacted by the district attorney's office two months ago "
One of them even turned off the camera.

And no, I am not anti-LEO.

 

[Bill of Rights]

I do understand your position. And I do not totally disagree with you. I understand being cautious. But to say we cannot be trusted is a slap in the face.

But do you not see you've successfully painted us all in the same light as Harness? I know what kind of person I am. And I am nothing like Harness.

Meh...I don't know why I bother. I won't change you opinion and you won't change mine. No respect lost.

As for me however...I guess I never had it in the first place. You can't respect someone you do not trust.

Public, if I may, he didn't say "you can't be trusted"... he said HIS trust in LEOs has been shaken, IIRC. There is a difference, IMHO. (I didn't go back and read to make sure, but that's what I recall him writing.)

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Expat]

Public, if I may, he didn't say "you can't be trusted"... he said HIS trust in LEOs has been shaken, IIRC. There is a difference, IMHO. (I didn't go back and read to make sure, but that's what I recall him writing.)

Blessings,
Bill

Here are what I think are the comments in question.

I'm sorry that one of your brothers has done something so heinous that I can no longer trust any cop.

So...which ones are like him and which ones aren't? When someone comes up with a way for me to identify the dangerous sociopaths from the honest, hard-working non-dangerous types, then we'll be fine. Until then, I must now treat them all as a threat or I put my life and the lives of my family at risk.

 

[Jack Burton]

I'll take generalizations for $1000, Alex. I would like to see this clear evidence that other cops turn their blind eye.

Do not take this as support for the CPD Officer. He crosssed the line both morally and professionally and should be punished accordingly. The things that the driver did illegally give no reason for the actions of the Officer. I understand why the Officer was edgey, but he was vetted and trained to be calm and professional in a situation like that one. He took the "to be in control of the situation" training, pissed on it and threw it away. He lost it.

On tape, his partner does not condemn the actions or tell him to stop. He will be held accountable also, or at least should be held accountable. We do not know what his report states.

Go to the policeone link and see how many of his fellow officers are supporting him. Yes, there are some condemning him... but until they start in issuing little blue dots for the foreheads of the good guys and little black dots for the bad guys we really don't know if we are getting Officer Friendly or Officer It's-a-fine-idea-to-shoot-you-with-my-Glock-40 at the car window, do we.

 

[dross]

I do understand your position. And I do not totally disagree with you. I understand being cautious. But to say we cannot be trusted is a slap in the face.

But do you not see you've successfully painted us all in the same light as Harness? I know what kind of person I am. And I am nothing like Harness.

Meh...I don't know why I bother. I won't change you opinion and you won't change mine. No respect lost.

As for me however...I guess I never had it in the first place. You can't respect someone you do not trust.

You KNOW you're a trustworthy person. I KNOW I'm a trustworthy person. Would you trust me on a traffic stop, or would you approach my vehicle with alert caution and maintain that caution throughout the stop? I think you would. Why? Because you don't know I'm trustworthy.

When you approach my vehicle, I don't know if you're trustworthy, either. I DO know, as Scutter explained so well above, that you have enormous power over me, and the ability to do me great harm.

Why should I trust you? You don't trust me.

I would like to be able to trust you just because you're a cop. Instead, I mistrust you because you're a cop. NOT because cops are less trustworthy, but because SOME are not, because MANY of their fellows will cover for them, AND because they have the power to ruin my life.

Just as I have the power to ruin yours if I'm a bad guy.

I think all this could change if you guys would ruthlessly, mercilessly, and with as much passion as you defend each other, cull these bad ones from your midst.

Should carrying the badge admit a guy to the club, or should carrying a badge and conducting himself impeccably at all times on duty be the ticket in?

 

[Jack Burton]

FWIW.........plea deals and charges being dropped happen normally (at least in both of the jurisdictions I have worked in) without the officers let alone the Chiefs knowledge.

In cases so intimately involving a department officer? One that even a most stupid prosecutor could see bring the exact current storm on to the department?

 

[Bill of Rights]

Here are what I think are the comments in question.

I stand corrected.