Unsatisfactory experience at Point Blank in Greenwood

[jsharmon7]

I'm a little confused- are you suggesting that paying to use a range makes the person a renter of real property? If so, is the contract in writing? What are the terms?

Maybe I'm missing something.

Honestly, my issue was more as to why they would have such a rule. That they can have it, I don't have an issue with and while giving notice is a better way to do business, I'm not so sure it's legally required. But why do they have the rule? If we all only made rules when they were necessary for a good reason, what a more pleasant world we would have.

Order in the court room!

I don't really have a problem with someone enforcing rules that aren't posted, in certain situations. If I'm at Chuck E. Cheese and there is no sign posted against swearing, and somebody is screaming profanities across the business, then I have no problem telling them "no profanity." This situation is much different, however, in that VUPD isn't bothering anybody with his suppressor (quite the opposite, actually). Nobody is being affected other than the busybody employee who took offense to being called out on his error. It's also a firearms business, which one would HOPE would be supportive of the firearms community. It also appears that the Form 4 isn't just a piece of paper, and is actually a tax document. It seems obvious why people wouldn't want to be pulling it out and waving it around to satisfy a whim.

The bottom line is that there are several other indoor ranges in the Indianapolis area. There is absolutely no reason why any of us should choose to support one that doesn't appear to have our best interests (as a firearms community) at heart.

 

[Woobie]

Taking people's money and then not providing the service paid for absolutely is a legal issue.

I worded that poorly. I didn't mean to address the issue of the contract. I certainly know nothing about contract law. Thank you for pointing that out.

I meant it in the general context of two gentlemen conducting business. If you decide to go back on the implicit or explicit agreement we have, then I will see you as a dishonorable person, and will not be doing business any longer. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice isn't going to happen.

 

[HoughMade]

Taking people's money and then not providing the service paid for absolutely is a legal issue.

They would just say that he can shoot all he wants during his time, just not with the expensive device that makes shooting more pleasant and safer for everyone.

 

[T.Lex]

My question stands.....why?

This is my own personal take, I have no idea if PB is motivated by this.

It is basically prophylactic. If something goes wrong (which, based on the dearth of documented issues, is a low risk), then they can say that they confirmed the person was properly "registered" with the US federal gov't. Which would be better than saying, "We did nothing."

I've heard someone suggest in another thread that if someone has the tax stamp, it may be more likely that they will handle the NFA item appropriately. I don't really agree with that, but it is a bit of a touchy-feely variation of my assessment.

 

[HoughMade]

This is my own personal take, I have no idea if PB is motivated by this.

It is basically prophylactic. If something goes wrong (which, based on the dearth of documented issues, is a low risk), then they can say that they confirmed the person was properly "registered" with the US federal gov't. Which would be better than saying, "We did nothing."

I've heard someone suggest in another thread that if someone has the tax stamp, it may be more likely that they will handle the NFA item appropriately. I don't really agree with that, but it is a bit of a touchy-feely variation of my assessment.

I think your take is likely spot on. When I counsel organizations about new policies or "rules" they want to enact (which I do on a semi-regular basis), among the questions I ask is: "what are you trying to accomplish with this policy" and "are you willing to do whatever it takes to enforce it?"

You may (or may not) be surprised by the number of executives and administrators who answer the first question with: "I don't know...someone said we should have this rule". If that is the answer, a lot more discussion needs to be had before we adopt anything. Maybe it's not necessary at all. Maybe it's covered by other things. Maybe it will make the situation worse.

The second question, the answer is usually "yes", but the when you ask questions about how they do that, no one knows. I would rather have no rule than have a rule that is not consistently enforced. In this case, signs would help. Also, when a person rented range time, asking if they are shooting with a supressor and if so, to see the stamp (if that is the policy)....should be parts of the policy.

...but if there is no law that would impose liability on a range owner for a patron shooting an unregistered supressor....why have the policy? Just because someday there might be such a law? really?

 

[Joe G]

This is my own personal take, I have no idea if PB is motivated by this.

It is basically prophylactic. If something goes wrong (which, based on the dearth of documented issues, is a low risk), then they can say that they confirmed the person was properly "registered" with the US federal gov't. Which would be better than saying, "We did nothing."

Possibly... but the fact they don't check any other more meaningful stats such as if the person is a felon with the weapon they brought in, if they're legally eligible to shoot, etc, would be much more important than if an add-on part's tax was paid.

 

[Thegeek]

Are you an RO sir.....

No. I'm also not real sure why it's such a problem to produce the form to a person of authority on private properly, or leave at their request. I fully expect any "open to public" range I'm shooting at to question the legality of my NFA items. It's going to happen, right or not.

 

[ajeandy]

Was just talking to a friend about VUPD's experience at this Point Blank. The general consensus, after having been there several times now, is that Point Blank is a Gander Mountain patron's range so it's hard for me to expect more than GM customer service or employee knowledge. This comment being made after several visits to the range and sales floor and helping a friend buy several firearms.

Yeah, like all of GM's gun guys work there now...lol still most of the staff has been friendly with me save one RO being a tard.

Funny you should mention that.. I overheard someone saying that they had 10 former GM employees there. Go figure.

[FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member[/FONT][FONT=&amp]-- [/FONT][FONT=&amp]GSSF member[/FONT]
Glock certified armorer- M&P Certified armorer
NRA Basic pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] /[/FONT][FONT=&amp] RSO[/FONT]
Bright Firearms instructor trainee

You are correct!

I carry multiple copies of my "paper" in every bag also scanned pdf files on my phone.

I don't carry around my papers. Hail the fuhrer.

Parabellum is currently the only place in Indianapolis that I know of which allows drawing from a holster. They're not jackasses. They're a good operation and worthy of your business.

BGF used to

Do the rules say you can't use a strobe weapon light? Do the rules say you can't shoot prone? Do the rules say you can't shoot with an upside down grip? Do the rules say you can't dual wield? Do the rules say you can't wear a scary clown mask while shooting? Do the rules say you can't shoot .50 BMG? I'm sure there are a lot of things not in print they will enforce verbally when necessary. Sounds like the ROs need these to hand out:
View attachment 44179

You drunk brah?

I'm not sure that I'll keep my Point Blank membership much longer. There are a couple of things that bother me about the range. I've heard reports of lax RO enforcement with pistols being loaded on the back bench and sweeping other shooters. I have not witnessed that myself, but I trust the person that told me about that. Also, availability seems spotty. The idea for me was to pay for a membership at the Greenwood range to have a close by winter shooting location. The last two times I went to shoot there, the line was halfway back through the store, so I skipped shooting. I like that there are a lot of shooters out there, but am not crazy about standing in long lines to shoot. Not their problem, but it presents an issue for me none the less.

Add to that, the last time I was there, I was hit by a 9mm slug that bounced back from the backstop somehow. It was a very light hit, kind of like an airsoft hit to the pants leg. I don't know if that's common at indoor ranges, but I don't recall hearing of it before. I mentioned it to the RO and he pulled another slug out of his pocket and said that it happens sometimes if someone strikes the floor while shooting. The biggest issue with that is that the large targets that they sell hang low enough that you are guaranteed to strike the concrete floor if you shoot the bottom two targets when they are back at the 7 yard line. When shooting those types of targets, I pull the target in and fold it to clip it higher before shooting the bottom targets. I have never seen anyone else do that, which makes me think that floor strikes are not uncommon.

The gun rental also seems to be very lax. I think it's not a matter of if, but when someone steals a gun from that location. I don't recall much scrutiny of drivers licenses to ensure the person is who the license says they are and I've seen guns brought back in their basket and just sat on the end of the counter unattended for minutes while the only person behind the counter checks people in. The person that brought the gun back was handed their license and the gun sat unattended for several minutes in a very busy shop.

This all sucks because at the times when the crowds were down, I found shooting there to be pretty nice. I've never had an issue with an RO and have had them sweep others abandoned brass my way after I told them I was saving brass. Aside from the NFA idiocy they display, they are suffering from being under staffed during peak times. One or two more people behind the range counter and more due diligence would eliminate the lax rental issue. More ROs on the line when busy would solve the safety issues and if they stopped selling the long targets that make it easy to strike the floor when shooting at close ranges, they would probably cut down on the bounce back issue.

Some of the patrons I see shoot there and hear the stuff they talk about / talk like really make me want to surround myself with bulletproof glass. For the most part the range is good. It gets crowded and there are a lot of people that go there who don't have as much experience with firearms as some of us. I hope I never got shot there. The rapid fire thing and the papers for nfa is kinda silly. Just have the ro do his job and all is well.

 

[Thegeek]

Nope. Just pointing out there's a pretty easy list to come up with that most ranges will enforce regardless if they're printed on their website or not. "Engaging in an illegal activity" is pretty broad and one I've seen at a few places. NFA items are pretty easy to spot and question.

Hell, they allow shotguns...... take some pigeons and start throwing targets down your lane. Don't see that rule anywhere either..... get my point?

 

[halfmileharry]

Before this thread I totally believed they had a secret policy on this. I hadn't considered the RO just being a fudd. I believe that is a distinct possibility.

Sounds like the manager was the Head Fudd in this.
I had more to spew but attorney fees keep coming to mind. I'm gonna bet I know the **** you had an interaction with.

 

[ajeandy]

I think it's their policy, but it's just not posted anywhere. I'd be pissed if I traveled any distance to get there with a MG only to be told, hand over your papers, and not have a copy on me!

 

[chipbennett]

Their house, their rules. You don't like the rules? Then don't go to the house. No butthurt, no big deal, pretty simple.

You know, IANAL, so I could be completely off-base here. But: isn't paying for range time a contractual obligation? Don't the terms of a contract have to be lawful, reasonable, in good faith, etc. in order to be enforceable? Wouldn't a requirement to disclose a private tax document that has nothing to do with the activities/services covered by the contract fail such a requirement?

I agree that the best solution, once aware of such a policy, is simply to take patronage elsewhere. But, if someone really wanted to push the issue, I wouldn't be surprised if a lawsuit over the policy were successful.

(Then again, if Planet Fitness can force women to share a locker room with a transgender male, then Point Blank can force shooters to disclose private tax documents.)

 

[SSGSAD]

BGF used to

BGF, used to have a FIRING Range, till some turd, burnt it down .....

 

[chipbennett]

Took a co-worker to their range in Cincy - refuse to go back after how they treated her.

Took my brother-in-law to their range in Carmel. Was decent, but I'll make sure not to go back to any of them after crap like this. Too many good ranges to choose from to support "unwritten rules" that come out whenever they feel like it.

Which one, Western Hills or Blue Ash?

I used to shoot at the one in Blue Ash all the time, and never had any problems. I always thought they were great there. I never made it to the newer one, in Western Hills.

 

[vitamink]

Nope. Just pointing out there's a pretty easy list to come up with that most ranges will enforce regardless if they're printed on their website or not. "Engaging in an illegal activity" is pretty broad and one I've seen at a few places. NFA items are pretty easy to spot and question.

Hell, they allow shotguns...... take some pigeons and start throwing targets down your lane. Don't see that rule anywhere either..... get my point?

there is still a difference. When you shoot a suppressor, the only thing you're doing is quieting the report. A suppressor doesn't make the situation inherently dangerous or change anything but the length of the gun and the sound it makes. if the range is willing to assume that everyone is legally possessing their guns, why would you assume that VUPD has a stolen suppressor? And what if it is? What was his next move? Detain the felon for the ATF with a suppressed CZ in his hands while your gun is in your holster? The option he chose was, just stop shooting it. Because he's being too quiet?

I certainly understand the "my house my rules", and asking someone to stand on their head and cluck like a chicken is his right within his store. I don't feel that is beyond ridicule though.

 

[ajeandy]

BGF used to

BGF, used to have a FIRING Range, till some turd, burnt it down .....

QFT

 

[chipbennett]

I am only familiar with the Carmel store. I shot my AR suppressor once, relatively soon after they opened, when the range was very busy. The RO asked if I had the stamp (after he noticed), and I said "yes." I didn't actually have it with me, but he didn't ask to see it.

I have no problem with 'my house, my rules' asking about the stamp, or even asking to see it. It isn't like it has a SSN on it.* But, I agree it should be written down somewhere.

I don't, however, demand "universal enforcement." That's worse. ROs should be trained on the law and the policy, but should also be allowed discretion in enforcement. "Zero tolerance" is 100% a bad idea, IMHO.

* Filling out scholarship and FAFSA stuff for my almost-college bound child. They ask for tax information. If I don't want to give it, my kid doesn't get the money. Same idea, IMHO. I can choose whether to participate in the program.

FAFSA is a needs-based program, with "needs" determined by income. In such a case, disclosing tax information related to income is part of the transaction.

Neither the range nor the RSO has any legal reason to require disclosure of private tax information.

 

[NHT3]

No. I'm also not real sure why it's such a problem to produce the form to a person of authority on private properly, or leave at their request. I fully expect any "open to public" range I'm shooting at to question the legality of my NFA items. It's going to happen, right or not.

First I"ll say that by your reasoning they should also check for a LTCH from every patron that carries a handgun through the front door. I'll give my non attorney opinion on the NFA issue.. Leaving at their request, not a problem. Giving up my tax document to someone other than an ATF agent, not happening. That "person of authority" could be what the Federal govt might consider, not a proper person. You have no idea what kind of background that person (or their brother-in-law) might have. My name and address is on the form and it is a Federal govt tax document therefore it's none of anyone's business. Their business, their rules. My money, my rules. It's a gunshop and range. You don't have to be the sharpest tool in the shed to realize that it's not a good idea to annoy paying customers with this nonsense. The gun community is already under attack from several fronts and Point Blank would be well advised to avoid joining that group of attackers if they want to succeed.

Glock certified armorer- M&P Certified armorer
NRA Basic pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] /[/FONT][FONT=&amp] RSO[/FONT]

 

[JettaKnight]

Turning business policy into "the law" smacks of anti-2A establishments (e.g. malls and restaurants).



Not happy to hear about this.



Also, how common is it that a person is in possession of an NFA device without having a stamp? I could see the RO questioning you if your cans were oil filters...


And furthermore, why is this RO enforcing an unjust and onerous law?

 

[chipbennett]

Maybe, depending upon what the agreement says, which would be interesting to see. Maybe not if the agreement says something like "agrees to follow all range rules and instructions of the range officer"...which I would be highly surprised if it didn't say that in some way, shape or form. But that's law school exam stuff with no real $$ behind it, meaning no court will ever see the issue to decide it.

My question stands.....why?

So, if the RSO demands that you show him your underwear, or to shout, "I am a golden god!" before every shot...?