Unsatisfactory experience at Point Blank in Greenwood

[churchmouse]

Do the rules say you can't use a strobe weapon light? Do the rules say you can't shoot prone? Do the rules say you can't shoot with an upside down grip? Do the rules say you can't dual wield? Do the rules say you can't wear a scary clown mask while shooting? Do the rules say you can't shoot .50 BMG? I'm sure there are a lot of things not in print they will enforce verbally when necessary. Sounds like the ROs need these to hand out:
View attachment 44179

Are you an RO sir.....

 

[wtburnette]

I wonder if any management from Point Blank will see this post. I'm sure they'd like to know how much business they just lost.

I do not see them advertising with us so they may not have any idea.

I know one of the managers from the Carmel location is a member. I don't know of anyone from the Greenwood location who is though. You would think that any large gun shop / range would have people from their staff who are members, just to make sure they keep their finger on the pulse of the local gun community. I enjoy shooting at Point Blank and haven't had any issues myself, but I'm starting to think that when my membership expires in April, I'll be heading back to BGF for my indoor shooting needs. If, of course, they're open by then.

Do the rules say you can't use a strobe weapon light? Do the rules say you can't shoot prone? Do the rules say you can't shoot with an upside down grip? Do the rules say you can't dual wield? Do the rules say you can't wear a scary clown mask while shooting? Do the rules say you can't shoot .50 BMG? I'm sure there are a lot of things not in print they will enforce verbally when necessary. Sounds like the ROs need these to hand out:
View attachment 44179

There's a big difference in the types of things you're talking about and what the OP posted.

 

[ArmedNerds]

Do the rules say you can't use a strobe weapon light? Do the rules say you can't shoot prone? Do the rules say you can't shoot with an upside down grip? Do the rules say you can't dual wield? Do the rules say you can't wear a scary clown mask while shooting? Do the rules say you can't shoot .50 BMG? I'm sure there are a lot of things not in print they will enforce verbally when necessary. Sounds like the ROs need these to hand out:

Did the rules state that management could demand private, federal tax paperwork on a whim? And say that it was the law that OP must provide it? And then change track when OP called them out as a LEO? I'm not faulting Point Blank for the idea of not allowing NFA items. They can do it all day, every day if they wish, and that is entirely their right. But to a)not state that up front, b)not know the laws surrounding products they sell or deal with, and c) threaten to call law enforcement over a simple misunderstanding? That's bad business, and poor representation of gun ownership. I'm willing to bet if OP had shown up and had seen a sign stating "No NFA items allowed on range", nothing would have happened. He'd have kept them in his range bag and the world would have kept spinning along.

But the RO and manager in question here, while they might have been in the right as far as it being company policy or what not, were wrong in their approach. And anyone who views that approach as the standard way of doing business deserves the kind of backlash they are getting here.

 

[JollyMon]

I havent been hassled yet shooting my suppressors at the carmel range yet. No one has even bothered to talk to me. They leave me alone. Hell I believe the last RO that saw me shooting my SBR with can on it , didnt even say a thing when I left it on the wooden table when it was cooling off, as smoke billowed out of the can. Granted, even if they asked to see my stamps I wouldnt have them with me (as I usually dont bring my normal range bag and just throw some stuff in backpack.) Guess they would have called the police on me then.....

Granted i would prefer a policy like this to be stated. Let us know what corporate says.

 

[churchmouse]

Did the rules state that management could demand private, federal tax paperwork on a whim? And say that it was the law that OP must provide it? And then change track when OP called them out as a LEO? I'm not faulting Point Blank for the idea of not allowing NFA items. They can do it all day, every day if they wish, and that is entirely their right. But to a)not state that up front, b)not know the laws surrounding products they sell or deal with, and c) threaten to call law enforcement over a simple misunderstanding? That's bad business, and poor representation of gun ownership. I'm willing to bet if OP had shown up and had seen a sign stating "No NFA items allowed on range", nothing would have happened. He'd have kept them in his range bag and the world would have kept spinning along.

But the RO and manager in question here, while they might have been in the right as far as it being company policy or what not, were wrong in their approach. And anyone who views that approach as the standard way of doing business deserves the kind of backlash they are getting here.

Having experienced some not so pleasant encounters with know it all RO's (not every one but a few) I can see that VUPD handled this very well.

 

[pudly]

I havent been hassled yet shooting my suppressors at the carmel range yet. No one has even bothered to talk to me. They leave me alone. Hell I believe the last RO that saw me shooting my SBR with can on it , didnt even say a thing when I left it on the wooden table when it was cooling off, as smoke billowed out of the can. Granted, even if they asked to see my stamps I wouldnt have them with me (as I usually dont bring my normal range bag and just throw some stuff in backpack.) Guess they would have called the police on me then.....

Granted i would prefer a policy like this to be stated. Let us know what corporate says.

Sounds like you have been there multiple times and that this isn't really corporate policy at all.

 

[ArmedNerds]

Having experienced some not so pleasant encounters with know it all RO's (not every one but a few) I can see that VUPD handled this very well.

Indeed, better than I would have.

 

[SSGSAD]

I know one of the managers from the Carmel location is a member. I don't know of anyone from the Greenwood location who is though. You would think that any large gun shop / range would have people from their staff who are members, just to make sure they keep their finger on the pulse of the local gun community. I enjoy shooting at Point Blank and haven't had any issues myself, but I'm starting to think that when my membership expires in April, I'll be heading back to BGF for my indoor shooting needs. If, of course, they're open by then.



There's a big difference in the types of things you're talking about and what the OP posted.

Hammertime, worked part time, at Greenwood, but has left, already .....

 

[wtburnette]

Sounds like you have been there multiple times and that this isn't really corporate policy at all.

I would bet that it's more that it's not enforced consistently from location to location. I have to say that I enjoyed shooting at the Carmel location a lot more than I do the Greenwood location. The staff seemed more laid back and more knowledgeable.

 

[wtburnette]

Hammertime, worked part time, at Greenwood, but has left, already .....

Yep, that's too bad too, as he was the only staff member that was an INGO member from that location, that I am aware of.

 

[T.Lex]

I am only familiar with the Carmel store. I shot my AR suppressor once, relatively soon after they opened, when the range was very busy. The RO asked if I had the stamp (after he noticed), and I said "yes." I didn't actually have it with me, but he didn't ask to see it.

I have no problem with 'my house, my rules' asking about the stamp, or even asking to see it. It isn't like it has a SSN on it.* But, I agree it should be written down somewhere.

I don't, however, demand "universal enforcement." That's worse. ROs should be trained on the law and the policy, but should also be allowed discretion in enforcement. "Zero tolerance" is 100% a bad idea, IMHO.

* Filling out scholarship and FAFSA stuff for my almost-college bound child. They ask for tax information. If I don't want to give it, my kid doesn't get the money. Same idea, IMHO. I can choose whether to participate in the program.

 

[HoughMade]

I'm a big "property rights" person, so the owner can set the rules....and the patron can decide whether or not to patronize.

Question- is there any precedent for adverse action against a range owner for the use of unregistered NFA items at their range?

 

[Fargo]

I'm a big "property rights" person, so the owner can set the rules....and the patron can decide whether or not to patronize.

Question- is there any precedent for adverse action against a range owner for the use of unregistered NFA items at their range?

Where do you stand on the rights of renters on contract?

I am unaware of any such precedent, especially since the federal machine gun case requiring mens rea for a violation to occur.

 

[ArmedNerds]

I'm a big "property rights" person, so the owner can set the rules....and the patron can decide whether or not to patronize.

Question- is there any precedent for adverse action against a range owner for the use of unregistered NFA items at their range?

The problem here isn't about if the owner can set the rules. I think that's been established that they can and they have the right. The problem is that the owner set the rules and didn't tell the users. Then when the user broke the rule they didn't know existed, the owners got pissy. That's bad business.

 

[HoughMade]

Where do you stand on the rights of renters on contract?...

I'm a little confused- are you suggesting that paying to use a range makes the person a renter of real property? If so, is the contract in writing? What are the terms?

Maybe I'm missing something.

Honestly, my issue was more as to why they would have such a rule. That they can have it, I don't have an issue with and while giving notice is a better way to do business, I'm not so sure it's legally required. But why do they have the rule? If we all only made rules when they were necessary for a good reason, what a more pleasant world we would have.

 

[Woobie]

The problem here isn't about if the owner can set the rules. I think that's been established that they can and they have the right. The problem is that the owner set the rules and didn't tell the users. Then when the user broke the rule they didn't know existed, the owners got pissy. That's bad business.

Exactly. Owners can do business how they choose, and with whom they choose (unrestricted in my ideal world, or as legal restrictions apply in the real world). But bad business practice isn't a question of legality, it's a question of how many customers can you **** off before you don't have to worry about enforcing stupid policies anymore, because no one is in the building.

 

[Fargo]

I'm a little confused- are you suggesting that paying to use a range makes the person a renter of real property? If so, is the contract in writing? What are the terms?

Maybe I'm missing something.

Honestly, my issue was more as to why they would have such a rule. That they can have it, I don't have an issue with and while giving notice is a better way to do business, I'm not so sure it's legally required. But why do they have the rule? If we all only made rules when they were necessary for a good reason, what a more pleasant world we would have.

Every range I've shot at has a written "Range rental agreement". It might not be a rental of real property, but it undoubtably encompasses a license to enter/use real property. According to VUPD, he did sign such an agreement so the range may have a parol evidence rule issue too.

 

[Fargo]

Exactly. Owners can do business how they choose, and with whom they choose (unrestricted in my ideal world, or as legal restrictions apply in the real world). But bad business practice isn't a question of legality, it's a question of how many customers can you **** off before you don't have to worry about enforcing stupid policies anymore, because no one is in the building.

Taking people's money and then not providing the service paid for absolutely is a legal issue.

 

[88E30M50]

I'm not sure that I'll keep my Point Blank membership much longer. There are a couple of things that bother me about the range. I've heard reports of lax RO enforcement with pistols being loaded on the back bench and sweeping other shooters. I have not witnessed that myself, but I trust the person that told me about that. Also, availability seems spotty. The idea for me was to pay for a membership at the Greenwood range to have a close by winter shooting location. The last two times I went to shoot there, the line was halfway back through the store, so I skipped shooting. I like that there are a lot of shooters out there, but am not crazy about standing in long lines to shoot. Not their problem, but it presents an issue for me none the less.

Add to that, the last time I was there, I was hit by a 9mm slug that bounced back from the backstop somehow. It was a very light hit, kind of like an airsoft hit to the pants leg. I don't know if that's common at indoor ranges, but I don't recall hearing of it before. I mentioned it to the RO and he pulled another slug out of his pocket and said that it happens sometimes if someone strikes the floor while shooting. The biggest issue with that is that the large targets that they sell hang low enough that you are guaranteed to strike the concrete floor if you shoot the bottom two targets when they are back at the 7 yard line. When shooting those types of targets, I pull the target in and fold it to clip it higher before shooting the bottom targets. I have never seen anyone else do that, which makes me think that floor strikes are not uncommon.

The gun rental also seems to be very lax. I think it's not a matter of if, but when someone steals a gun from that location. I don't recall much scrutiny of drivers licenses to ensure the person is who the license says they are and I've seen guns brought back in their basket and just sat on the end of the counter unattended for minutes while the only person behind the counter checks people in. The person that brought the gun back was handed their license and the gun sat unattended for several minutes in a very busy shop.

This all sucks because at the times when the crowds were down, I found shooting there to be pretty nice. I've never had an issue with an RO and have had them sweep others abandoned brass my way after I told them I was saving brass. Aside from the NFA idiocy they display, they are suffering from being under staffed during peak times. One or two more people behind the range counter and more due diligence would eliminate the lax rental issue. More ROs on the line when busy would solve the safety issues and if they stopped selling the long targets that make it easy to strike the floor when shooting at close ranges, they would probably cut down on the bounce back issue.

 

[HoughMade]

...so the range may have a parol evidence rule issue too.

Maybe, depending upon what the agreement says, which would be interesting to see. Maybe not if the agreement says something like "agrees to follow all range rules and instructions of the range officer"...which I would be highly surprised if it didn't say that in some way, shape or form. But that's law school exam stuff with no real $$ behind it, meaning no court will ever see the issue to decide it.

My question stands.....why?