Unsatisfactory experience at Point Blank in Greenwood

[churchmouse]

I've never shot like that. I wonder how terrible the results would be.

Like this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^terrible.
Train to sight the gun laid over around a corner and you would be surprised how accurate it can be.

 

[nakinate]

Like this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^terrible.
Train to sight the gun laid over around a corner and you would be surprised how accurate it can be.

While grabbing your package and taunting? That's where the real intimidation comes in...

 

[Snapdragon]

While grabbing your package and taunting? That's where the real intimidation comes in...

"Dude, I'm SO better at soccer than you!"

 

[Thegeek]

Settle down trigger.

So far, I've heard:
"it's a private tax document"
"I don't have to show it to anyone but an ATF agent"
"It wasn't a requirement of my rental contract"
"if they aren't checking for legality on anything else, why only this"

So other than the butthurt over the principle of it being unnecessary, and looking at page 1 of Form4, I still don't see why anyone would have a problem showing a piece of paper with any additional personal info from what you already provided. Who's going to be first to complain about having to show a DL to check-in? We all seem to be perfectly fine with that requirement, but the sky is falling when they ask to see your ATF doc. I find that to be quite contradicting.

 

[chipbennett]

My question then is why not just show them?

Theoretically?

1. Because I would not be obligated to carry my confidential tax records around with me; they are likely sitting securely in a safe.
2. Because they are confidential tax documents, and there is no reason to violate my privacy when I can easily go elsewhere.

 

[Thegeek]

#1, I'll disagree. If you're transporting it, event the ATF recommends you have a copy with you.

#2 is really what I'm after. Everyone seems to have the position that it's a confidential tax document. What's so confidential about it when everyone and their brother knows the dollar amount? It would seem more like a detailed receipt to me.


Let's expand on #1 too. What about keeping two copies with you? Once with all the data you consider personal redacted for non-ATF bodies that wish to see proof, and another for ATF agents?

 

[SSGSAD]

"Dude, I'm SO better at soccer than you!"

But, But ..... you're a steel ringing .... mo fo !!!!!

 

[T.Lex]

2. Because they are confidential tax documents, and there is no reason to violate my privacy when I can easily go elsewhere.

#2 is really what I'm after. Everyone seems to have the position that it's a confidential tax document. What's so confidential about it when everyone and their brother knows the dollar amount? It would seem more like a detailed receipt to me.

IMHO this is along the same lines as "Am I being detained?" There is a wide range of reasonable responses to sensitive firearm questions. I would generally not have a problem providing the tax stamp if the request is reasonable. I consider "their house, their rules" to be a reasonable request, and I don't really have any other options nearby.

Part of the reason I don't have an issue with providing the stamp is that I think it is pretty cool to have it. The "newness" hasn't really worn off yet.

 

[Snapdragon]

But, But ..... you're a steel ringing .... mo fo !!!!!

Well, there is that...

 

[ArmedNerds]

Let's expand on #1 too. What about keeping two copies with you? Once with all the data you consider personal redacted for non-ATF bodies that wish to see proof, and another for ATF agents?

Why should I have to? You are not the ATF. It would be like a private citizen in the street asking to see my LTCH. Go pound some sand. Ihre Papiere, bitte?

 

[JollyMon]

Guess what, its now their house, their rules. The rule has now been posted.

If you dont want to go there, then dont. If you dont care about showing a piece of paper that says you legally own something, then go there.

To me its not that big of a deal, now that it is a posted rule. The option of it being so much closer than other ranges, sways me. There is always going to be a bug up his/her ass RO at any range.

You all are going to argue about this all day and not sway anyone's opinion..... but then again this is INGO, so carry on

 

[Thegeek]

IMHO this is along the same lines as "Am I being detained?" There is a wide range of reasonable responses to sensitive firearm questions. I would generally not have a problem providing the tax stamp if the request is reasonable. I consider "their house, their rules" to be a reasonable request, and I don't really have any other options nearby.

Part of the reason I don't have an issue with providing the stamp is that I think it is pretty cool to have it. The "newness" hasn't really worn off yet.

You bring up a good parallel discussion. You see all these jackwads who go out to provoke a response by open carrying, then filming the interaction with police for YouTube stardom. If all these folks are so smart, then why don't they execute the rest of their rights? For instance, in Indiana, MWAG call comes in. Police respond. Let's say I'm the MWAG. I hand the officer my DL and my LTCH and say "I do not wish to be detained any longer than what is necessary for you to verify the information you've been handed". And remain silent for the remainder of the interaction.

 

[chipbennett]

#1, I'll disagree. If you're transporting it, event the ATF recommends you have a copy with you.

"ATF recommends" is not legally binding. And IMHO, throwing a suppressor in a range bag, taking to the range, and then back home, is not "transporting". You're simply using it. Travel (e.g. via plane, and/or inter-state)? Sure. Take a copy with you.

#2 is really what I'm after. Everyone seems to have the position that it's a confidential tax document. What's so confidential about it when everyone and their brother knows the dollar amount? It would seem more like a detailed receipt to me.

I don't show people my Social Security card. (I don't even carry it with me. It's in a safe.) I don't show people my LTCH. I keep my private documents private.

Let's expand on #1 too. What about keeping two copies with you? Once with all the data you consider personal redacted for non-ATF bodies that wish to see proof, and another for ATF agents?

Because non-ATF entities have no business requesting or seeing that information. It's none of their business.

 

[chipbennett]

Guess what, its now their house, their rules. The rule has now been posted.

If you dont want to go there, then dont. If you dont care about showing a piece of paper that says you legally own something, then go there.

To me its not that big of a deal, now that it is a posted rule. The option of it being so much closer than other ranges, sways me. There is always going to be a bug up his/her ass RO at any range.

You all are going to argue about this all day and not sway anyone's opinion..... but then again this is INGO, so carry on

You seem to be in agreement - violently so, even - with pretty much every person who has posted in this thread.

I would ask why you sound so agitated when everyone agrees with you... but then again this is INGO, so carry on.

 

[Thegeek]

So when you check in at a range and they want your driver's license, what's your feeling on that?

 

[HamYankee]

I had a similar experience at PB in Carmel. Got my AR15 out with the suppressor. The range officer/kid looked at me strangely and asked what it was. I said it is a suppressor and he said something in his radio like he was the secret service. I set up and shot 10 or so shots.
When I turned around there were two of them, including the manager asking to see my papers. I said the only people I legally have to show that to is the ATF. The guy said it was the store policy. I said I had no idea and didn't see anything indicating that rule. He let me continue to shoot and asked me to bring a copy of my papers next time.

It was mainly an inconvenience and drew unwanted attention to me.

 

[SSGSAD]

So when you check in at a range and they want your driver's license, what's your feeling on that?

I "think" they ALL want ID .....

Funny it is NOT required to vote !!!!! (it is around here) .....

 

[chipbennett]

So when you check in at a range and they want your driver's license, what's your feeling on that?

I have no problem with it, as long as they keep it secure.

 

[Thegeek]

So where do you draw the line between personal and "as long as they keep it secure"? Your avatar shows a person wearing glasses. Assuming that's you, your DL most likely shows you have an A restriction. Do you believe HIPPA should protect you from anyone viewing your DL knowing you have vision issues?

 

[JollyMon]

I have no problem with it, as long as they keep it secure.

Would you be fine if they asked for your LTCH, if they kept it secure? Why is one document okay when another is not.