Two-Thirds of Americans Favor Citizenship for Illegal Immigrants

[Fargo]

Not awake enough for a really deep discussion, but the best I can offer at the moment is that it isn't a matter so much of being hardened as realizing that our society is confronted with a demand that it cannot bear. This also takes in a lot of territory that can't be addressed with one blanket solution. Controlling the border is not optional if we wish to have a country in the future. As for dealing with those who are already here, first, the criminals should be given their choice to leave now or be put out of our misery. If they come back, put them out of our misery. It is often overlooked that more of our citizens are killed her each year by illegals than have been killed total for the entire duration of the Afghanistan/Iraq war. That is just the ones killed. This does not account for any other crimes. It is indeed difficult to address the potential for collateral damage, but we also have to consider the collateral damage going the other way. It is much like when Richard Marcinko and his team assessed the security at our embassy in Beirut. Devices were available (which Marcinko found to work by accidentally blowing up a bomb factory driving around town) which broadcast random radio frequencies to set off the triggers which were in fashion at the time. After giving the ambassador a very unflattering review and recommending that these devices be installed at the corners of the embassy compound, the ambassador angrily dismissed the notion that there was anything wrong with there security and he particularly disliked those devices because they *could* harm innocent Lebanese. This was less than a month before that same embassy was successfully attacked with a car bomb killing. Marcinko would later address his ill will toward that ambassador whose attitude was essentially that there was no reason why Lebanese should die when Americans can die instead.

Anyway, my thoughts work something like this:

1. Control the border. Actually do it, not just pay lip service to it.

2. Get rid of the criminal aliens.

3. Offer the non-criminals a chance to come clean and devise a system for dealing with them compatible with the needs of the country rather than the real or perceived needs of those who have chosen to violate our country. Offer a path to citizenship for those who present a viable argument for keeping them or have a domestic sponsor as would be the case with a proper immigrant.

4. Correct the laws on illegal entry to serve as an actual deterrent for those who might manage to cross our improved border.

5. Allow the border patrol to take care of business. This is not your average law enforcement. This is national security, especially given that hostile terrorists have a virtually unobstructed avenue for illegal entry. let me emphasize that there is no reason why personnel charged with our national security should passively allow shots to be fired and chunks of concrete to be thrown at them regardless of which side of the line they may be on.

6. MAKE IT ABUNDANTLY CLEAR TO THOSE IN POWER IN MEXICO CITY THAT IF THEY DO NOT STOP ACTIVELY ASSISTING THEIR PEOPLE IN THE EFFORT TO BREAK OUR LAW THROUGH ILLEGAL ENTRY, THE REST OF THEIR LIVES ARE GOING TO GET VERY, VERY SHORT.

I actually in many ways agree with you as to how the situation should be handled. I was under the apparently mistaken impression from some of your previous post that you were just a deport them all right now kind of guy.
My post #144 lays out something very similar.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Not awake enough for a really deep discussion, but the best I can offer at the moment is that it isn't a matter so much of being hardened as realizing that our society is confronted with a demand that it cannot bear. This also takes in a lot of territory that can't be addressed with one blanket solution. Controlling the border is not optional if we wish to have a country in the future. As for dealing with those who are already here, first, the criminals should be given their choice to leave now or be put out of our misery. If they come back, put them out of our misery. It is often overlooked that more of our citizens are killed her each year by illegals than have been killed total for the entire duration of the Afghanistan/Iraq war. That is just the ones killed. This does not account for any other crimes. It is indeed difficult to address the potential for collateral damage, but we also have to consider the collateral damage going the other way. It is much like when Richard Marcinko and his team assessed the security at our embassy in Beirut. Devices were available (which Marcinko found to work by accidentally blowing up a bomb factory driving around town) which broadcast random radio frequencies to set off the triggers which were in fashion at the time. After giving the ambassador a very unflattering review and recommending that these devices be installed at the corners of the embassy compound, the ambassador angrily dismissed the notion that there was anything wrong with there security and he particularly disliked those devices because they *could* harm innocent Lebanese. This was less than a month before that same embassy was successfully attacked with a car bomb killing. Marcinko would later address his ill will toward that ambassador whose attitude was essentially that there was no reason why Lebanese should die when Americans can die instead.

Anyway, my thoughts work something like this:

1. Control the border. Actually do it, not just pay lip service to it.

2. Get rid of the criminal aliens.

3. Offer the non-criminals a chance to come clean and devise a system for dealing with them compatible with the needs of the country rather than the real or perceived needs of those who have chosen to violate our country. Offer a path to citizenship for those who present a viable argument for keeping them or have a domestic sponsor as would be the case with a proper immigrant.

4. Correct the laws on illegal entry to serve as an actual deterrent for those who might manage to cross our improved border.

5. Allow the border patrol to take care of business. This is not your average law enforcement. This is national security, especially given that hostile terrorists have a virtually unobstructed avenue for illegal entry. let me emphasize that there is no reason why personnel charged with our national security should passively allow shots to be fired and chunks of concrete to be thrown at them regardless of which side of the line they may be on.

6. MAKE IT ABUNDANTLY CLEAR TO THOSE IN POWER IN MEXICO CITY THAT IF THEY DO NOT STOP ACTIVELY ASSISTING THEIR PEOPLE IN THE EFFORT TO BREAK OUR LAW THROUGH ILLEGAL ENTRY, THE REST OF THEIR LIVES ARE GOING TO GET VERY, VERY SHORT.

I think you and Trump are on the same page.

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/immigration-reform

 

[poptab]

Why is it a pipe dream? The only reason that it can't work is that those responsible for making it work lack the will to do so.

Why is it a moral hazard? Is it a moral hazard for you to defend your home from looters, criminals, and squatters? Why is it any different for us to do so collectively?

Yea will is required to close off our border. Political will is required. It is required because actually closing the border to illegals is a massive project that would cost billions of dollars and require ongoing support in man hours and upkeep.
It's too easy to say we'll just close off the border. Try formulating a plan to actually accomplish that goal. It's going to be expensive just to make the plan.

No political will for that.

 

[17 squirrel]

Yea will is required to close off our border. Political will is required. It is required because actually closing the border to illegals is a massive project that would cost billions of dollars and require ongoing support in man hours and upkeep.
It's too easy to say we'll just close off the border. Try formulating a plan to actually accomplish that goal. It's going to be expensive just to make the plan.

No political will for that.

I just don't see how it would be that hard. Fences just like on some of the Military bases, a double row of 16' chain link fence about 50' apart and signs on the first fence in English & spanish in red ,white and blue.
" If you climb this fence armed lethal force will be used "
It's simple.. We guard many important installations this way all over this country. Our border should be no different. Our Country is the most important installation of all.

 

[jamil]

I just don't see how it would be that hard. Fences just like on some of the Military bases, a double row of 16' chain link fence about 50' apart and signs on the first fence in English & spanish in red ,white and blue.
" If you climb this fence armed lethal force will be used "
It's simple.. We guard many important installations this way all over this country. Our border should be no different. Our Country is the most important installation of all.

I don't oppose the idea of a fence. I certainly think the border needs to be much more secure than it is now. But we're talking about several hundred miles of fence. I've seen some estimates that reach up to ~$2.5B just for the fence, not to mention recurring costs for manning, and maintenance. It's not cheap.

 

[DRob]

You'll never convince me that 2/3 of us Americans agree on anything!

 

[jbombelli]

Yea will is required to close off our border. Political will is required. It is required because actually closing the border to illegals is a massive project that would cost billions of dollars and require ongoing support in man hours and upkeep.
It's too easy to say we'll just close off the border. Try formulating a plan to actually accomplish that goal. It's going to be expensive just to make the plan.

No political will for that.

Trump said he'd make Mexico pay for it.

 

[OakRiver]

If you can't understand how rounding people up and ripping them from their home could be a moral hazard, I suggest that you see if you can tag along with the locals on a search warrant service as an outside observer. It all sounds like one thing in theory, but when you are actually there watching someone else's home get invaded, watching their stuff get through, watching them sit there helplessly, watching their kids cry and grow to hate, it puts what you propose into a different perspective. It is in my opinion one of the worst feelings in the world. Sure, they are criminals and a judge signed the warrant, but see if you still feel that there's no moral hazard in what you propose.

As you watch, remember that at the end of the day these people and their kids aren't even getting loaded on the bus and taken away.

Now I doubt many, if any, departments would allow a ride along on a warrant service, but your opinion might change if they did.

You are ignoring the fact that the overwhelming majority of illegal aliens will self deport when their host nation makes them unable to work under the table or claim benefits. Using an appeal to emotion is wholly disingenuous, and is something that we rightly criticize others for when it comes to the Second Amendment

Or maybe you're just a much harder person that I am.

Remember when you complained about a similar line I used, then claimed I was using strawmen?

You can church it up with whatever platitudes you want about this being your country and not theirs, but at the end of the day these are human beings we are talking about and their children are US citizens just the same as you and me.

They are. And the family can decide whether they want to stay together and be removed (as the child will still have citizenship through its parents and can return to their country of origin), or the family can choose to be separated.

Or maybe you are just a much harder person than I.

That's twice you have offered that false choice. Do you have an actual argument that is not just appeals to emotion?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I just don't see how it would be that hard. Fences just like on some of the Military bases, a double row of 16' chain link fence about 50' apart and signs on the first fence in English & spanish in red ,white and blue.
" If you climb this fence armed lethal force will be used "
It's simple.. We guard many important installations this way all over this country. Our border should be no different. Our Country is the most important installation of all.

It's not that simple, but it's a start. Smugglers use tunnels, aircraft, hiding places in cars. I never really got how remote some of the border is until I was deployed there.

 

[devious169]

Drag off 11 million? You don't have to. Most are economic migrants. A few changes and many will remove themselves;
- no government assistance of any kind (SNAP/Medicare/school/housing)
- no driving license
- no government ID
- expand the I-9 program
- heavy penalties ($10,000 per illegal immigrant working for you, any more than 6 = 6 months Federal prison)
- withdrawing Federal aid for any municipality that does not cooperate with ICE

I like the way you think. Makes sense to me.

 

[Fargo]

I just don't see how it would be that hard. Fences just like on some of the Military bases, a double row of 16' chain link fence about 50' apart and signs on the first fence in English & spanish in red ,white and blue.
" If you climb this fence armed lethal force will be used "
It's simple.. We guard many important installations this way all over this country. Our border should be no different. Our Country is the most important installation of all.

What you propose can easily be defeated by a car with a ram on it unless you have gunners stationed the entire length. Who are these armed personnel you are going to have shooting border crossers, ala the Berlin Wall?

 

[devious169]

You'll never convince me that 2/3 of us Americans agree on anything!

If I was a betting man, I would be more than 2/3 of Americans will agree that they love MONEY!

 

[Dead Duck]

What you propose can easily be defeated by a car with a ram on it unless you have gunners stationed the entire length. Who are these armed personnel you are going to have shooting border crossers, ala the Berlin Wall?

The Berlin wall? They were trying to keep their citizens/prisoners in the country. We just need to keep criminals out of our country.
You're talking Apples and.....turtles......

 

[jbombelli]

If I was a betting man, I would be more than 2/3 of Americans will agree that they love MONEY!

I like money. I can't believe you like money too.

 

[Fargo]

The Berlin wall? They were trying to keep their citizens/prisoners in the country. We just need to keep criminals out of our country.
You're talking Apples and.....turtles......

I'm not the one suggesting shooting border crossers. The logistics are the same regardless of which side you are shooting from. I want to know where these gunners are going to come from. My comparison was logistical, not political.

 

[Dead Duck]

I'm not the one suggesting shooting border crossers. The logistics are the same regardless of which side you are shooting from. I want to know where these gunners are going to come from.

You're right the logistics are the same with regards to a man shooting a gun at another man.
But is a gang member shooting a cop the same as a cop shooting a gang member? They both have the same logistics as you say?

Ya -
Not the same. At all.





I want my ****ing Country back *** dammit, and I want it ****ing back right ****ing now!

MERICA!

 

[printcraft]

This thread is missing something.......

Ah, much better.

 

[Fargo]

You're right the logistics are the same with regards to a man shooting a gun at another man.
But is a gang member shooting a cop the same as a cop shooting a gang member? They both have the same logistics as you say?

Ya -
Not the same. At all.





I want my ****ing Country back *** dammit, and I want it ****ing back right ****ing now!

MERICA!

I'm trying to understand the logistics of manning a 1950 mile fence with enough gunners to keep anyone who wants from driving through it. Logistically, the East Germans struggled to do so with an approx 87 mile solid wall. This is a logistical question, not whatever political analogy you desperately seem to want it to be.

 

[Dead Duck]

We are not the East Germans.

 

[Fargo]

We are not the East Germans.

I never said we were. Do you know what the word "logistics" means?