Two-Thirds of Americans Favor Citizenship for Illegal Immigrants

[Fargo]

How about a cite about where this 11 million reduction is coming from. Other than "we don't currently have a working immigrant visa system" argument, which I'd counter with "we don't have a working method of dealing with illegal immigrants, either."

If we need immigrant workers, we can set up a workable visa system just the same as we can fix illegal immigration. But we don't, because too many people that matter profit from the way things are.

So instead of looking at 11 million people just disappearing into a vacuum, let's look at it in context of the big picture.

1) New workers will take the jobs if we still want the jobs done. Resulting in:
Higher wages
More money spent in the country
More money (water) moves the economy (water wheel)

If we really can't find enough Americans to do the work we can still import labor:

2) Immigrant workers would be here legally
Pay their share of taxes
Can bring families, buy property, use bank accounts, etc. so more money is spent in the US instead of being sent "back home"
Money (water) moves the economy (water wheel)

The number of consumers is one variable. How much they have to spend is another, and where they spend it is yet another.

The 11 million disappearing is a reference to the multiple people in this thread who's proposed solution is to simply round them all up and deport them all and build a fence across the border. My point, is that this will not automatically produce these wonderful results some folks think they will.

It ignores the 30+ years of complete non-enforcement we have done so causing them to become a part of our economy.

It ignores the fact that most of their children are US citizens and so cannot be deported. This creates millions of wards of the state which we now have to pay for.

It ignores the fact that we would have a diminishing population but for immigrant workers.

It ignores the fact that you would have to dramatically increase taxes to pay for the border fortress and deportation.

To some, and I'm not referring to you, pointing these things out apparently means that I just don't want the law enforced...

 

[1DOWN4UP]

Hey Fargo,Do you got one of those Sinaloan Beauty Queens you ain't told us about?

 

[Jronion]

Gotta earn it.

 

[Fargo]

Hey Fargo,Do you got one of those Sinaloan Beauty Queens you ain't told us about?

Nope, closest I've got is a brother-in-law who has a little Aztec in him from his family's Texas roots but he's an ugly son of a gun.

This mess has been 30+ years in the making, you can't not enforce your own laws for that long and not have some consequences at the end. It kind of reminds me of Indiana's sentencing scheme, make laws that look really tough, but then take all the bite out of them through other means.

Now, decades later, we have tons of new minted American citizens with foreign national parents here illegally. We have millions of them working within our economy, and we have industries which have almost entirely been given over to illegal workers.

You can't have 30 years of allowing millions of people to assimilate to one degree or another in an under the table fashion, and fix it all just by rounding up and deporting them. You have to rip families apart, gut your own economy and raise taxes to do so, it is a textbook example of cutting your nose off to spite your face.

There are ways to secure our borders, and bring migrant workers into the country in a legal fashion but most people on the Republican side don't seem to have any interest in working in that direction. Conversely, I do not believe that people that came here illegally should just be allowed to become citizens and stay here.

In my Opinion, before you start blanket deporting you need to establish a viable guestworker program available in an affordable fashion to poor Mexicans, and then you need to beef up our border to an extent that the coyotes are no longer just running across it at will. You also need a mechanism to get the parents of US citizens into that worker program without first breaking families.

Once you have those three things done, start deporting anyone who hasn't gotten with the program. You get an end result of legal migrant workers, not tearing up families, and not having to burn a ton of tax dollars turn the border into some kind of fortress and vastly expand federal law-enforcement.

If that makes me somehow not a murican in people's eyes, so be it.

Edit: You also avoid growing customs and border protection and ice into behemoth organizations within federal law-enforcement. You know those same people that do the check points in the fourth amendment free zones. I'm sure once the immigration crisis is over, Congress would cut funding and let all those extra agents go...

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Sending soldiers to war vastly INCREASES demand within an economy; your analogy is inherently flawed on its face.

Deployment doesn't remove a solider as a consumer, it actually exponentially increases his consumption within the economy.

WWII pulled us out the Depression precisely because it dramatically increased consumption and demand.

Your argument was that we couldn't remove 11M "workers" from the economy because "who will do the work?" I pointed out that it's been done before in America and it can be done again. It can also be argued, I think that, while those 16 million military personnel (and the war) drove an expanding economy, other Americans stood up and filled in. Additionally, not all of these theoretical 11 million illegals are "filling jobs Americans don't want to do," a substantial portion are sucking up benefits and contributing NOTHING to the Whole.

 

[Fargo]

Your argument was that we couldn't remove 11M "workers" from the economy because "who will do the work?" I pointed out that it's been done before in America and it can be done again. It can also be argued, I think that, while those 16 million military personnel (and the war) drove an expanding economy, other Americans stood up and filled in. Additionally, not all of these theoretical 11 million illegals are "filling jobs Americans don't want to do," a substantial portion are sucking up benefits and contributing NOTHING to the Whole.

Deporting a laborer and deploying a soldier are fundamentally different economic events. That is explained in the very quote you cited. They are not comparable and this is not something we have done before. Additionally, depression era America and today are fundamentally different economic circumstances so it also is a non sequitur from that aspect as well.

That said, I'm not certain that you and I have a fundamental disagreement on what should be done about this.

Did you read my opinion of what I think should be done one post up?

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Deporting a laborer and deploying a soldier are fundamentally different economic events. That is explained in the very quote you cited. They are not comparable and this is not something we have done before. Additionally, depression era America and today are fundamentally different economic circumstances so it also is a non sequitur from that aspect as well.

Did you even read my opinion of what I think should be done one post up?

I dunno. We've supposedly got 93 million working-age Americans in this country who aren't working - that's probably close enough to "Depression Era" to be going on with. And while WWII dragged the country out of the Great Depression, the majority of American soldiers were drawn out of that expanding economy and finding replacements from non-traditional workers (e.g. women). I think my comparison is very appropriate despite your demurral.

Aaaaand, as is so often the case, I had already written my response to your (quoted) post before I read your next relevant post.

 

[Fargo]

I dunno. We've supposedly got 93 million working-age Americans in this country who aren't working - that's probably close enough to "Depression Era" to be going on with. And while WWII dragged the country out of the Great Depression, the majority of American soldiers were drawn out of that expanding economy and finding replacements from non-traditional workers (e.g. women). I think my comparison is very appropriate despite your demurral.

Aaaaand, as is so often the case, I had already written my response to your (quoted) post before I read your next relevant post.

It happens to me all the time! I am curious your thoughts of my above opinion of how I think the situation should be handled. Thanks. You have always seemed like a person with both feet pretty firmly planted in reality.

 

[OakRiver]

I am aware that you have stated your intentions not to reply to me. That is your right and privilege, however some members of the forum may find the following interesting

The 11 million disappearing is a reference to the multiple people in this thread who's proposed solution is to simply round them all up and deport them all and build a fence across the border. My point, is that this will not automatically produce these wonderful results some folks think they will.

It ignores the 30+ years of complete non-enforcement we have done so causing them to become a part of our economy.

As stated previously, making it economically unfavourable for illegal aliens will result in their leaving voluntarily. I do not recall anyone saying it would be instantaneous (now your ascribing that argument to another user is an actual example of a strawman)

It ignores the fact that most of their children are US citizens and so cannot be deported. This creates millions of wards of the state which we now have to pay for.

Much, much less than the 11 million illegal aliens currently draining resources. And children born in the US to illegal aliens retain the citizenship of their parents. There is no need to break up families

It ignores the fact that we would have a diminishing population but for immigrant workers.

You own evidence does not back this up. In fact illegal immigration (or increased lawful immigration) is not offered as a solution to this perceived problem, and ignores that the birth rate has been lower in the past and our economy recovered successfully

It ignores the fact that you would have to dramatically increase taxes to pay for the border fortress and deportation.

I refer to my first line in this post, and the numerous other times it has been posted in this thread by myself - taxes and any sort of "fortress" is not necessary

You have to rip families apart, gut your own economy and raise taxes to do so, it is a textbook example of cutting your nose off to spite your face.

The responsibility for those families being separated is the parents when they chose to enter the US unlawfully. Your appeal to emotion conveniently ignores that a child born in the US to illegal aliens will still have the citizenship of its parents. There is no need to "rip families apart". The American born child can return to the US at a later time should they so choose.

Again, no additional taxes are needed. Your continued claims that removing illegal aliens will cause the economy to "crumble" or otherwise "gut" the economy are wholly without merit. The evidence you provided undermined your own argument, and removing people who are a net drain on society is unlikely to cause an economic downturn.

Once you have those three things done, start deporting anyone who hasn't gotten with the program. You get an end result of legal migrant workers, not tearing up families, and not having to burn a ton of tax dollars turn the border into some kind of fortress and vastly expand federal law-enforcement.

But I thought we couldn't deport people because "You have to rip families apart, gut your own economy and raise taxes to do so, it is a textbook example of cutting your nose off to spite your face.", and with deportation naturally comes border security which means having "taxes to pay for the border fortress and deportation"

You also need a mechanism to get the parents of US citizens into that worker program without first breaking families.

So we reward people who broke the law? Do we waive any exclusion period for those who were unlawfully in the US? How do you reconcile this with 212(a)(6) of the Immigration & Nationality Act?
(6) Illegal entrants and immigration violators. -
(A) ALIENS PRESENT WITHOUT admission or parole.-

(i) In general.-An alien present in the United States without being admitted or paroled, or who arrives in the United States at any time or place other than as designated by the Attorney General, is inadmissible.

. . .
(B) Failure to attend removal proceeding.-Any alien who without reasonable cause fails or refuses to attend or remain in attendance at a proceeding to determine the alien's inadmissibility or deportability and who seeks admission to the United States within 5 years of such alien's subsequent departure or removal is inadmissible.
Ineligibilities and Waivers: Laws

I dunno. We've supposedly got 93 million working-age Americans in this country who aren't working - that's probably close enough to "Depression Era" to be going on with. And while WWII dragged the country out of the Great Depression, the majority of American soldiers were drawn out of that expanding economy and finding replacements from non-traditional workers (e.g. women). I think my comparison is very appropriate despite your demurral.

This sounds like a separate conversation about the role of welfare, and what incentives should assist people participating in the workforce

 

[indyjs]

Trump
I really do not understand this trend we are in with the coddling of criminals. I guess the young identify as criminals ?
Must be the RAP

 

[zippy23]

what does any of this matter? we already have laws in place for all this stuff and none of it is followed. At this point, our gov't only enforces what it wants to. Courts rule how they want, not according to law, and we the people go along with it, some even applaud it.

 

[BugI02]

Fight the good fight. Go down swinging

 

[poptab]

Enforcing the border is a pipe dream.

It's also a giant moral hazard and I hope you don't plan on using the force of government to confiscate my hard earned money to try and not ever achieve this pipe dream.

Yea didn't think so.... Also a pipe dream.

 

[DragonGunner]

I just wish we would tax illegals to death, no welfare, no health benefits, no handouts….then give them the option to go through a process to become Americans, if they refuse then deport them, if they agree and become American citizens tax them even more…..that'll teach 'em.

 

[AA&E]

2. Sure, you could get some people to do the work, but you are still drawing from an extremely limited pool unless, as you acknowledge, you dramatically up wages. Upping wages causes the prices of products to go up. The price of products going up reduces demand. Reduced demand causes reduced production. Reduced production causes reduced employment and reduced economic growth. Ergo, the economy contracts. This applies way beyond mere produce. This benefits virtually no one.

Virtually everything we buy today is drastically more expensive then it was 10 to 15 years ago. Wages have been stagnant for far decades. When I graduated high school in 1990 the wood factories in Dubois county were paying $12-13/hour to start... guess where those same jobs start today... 25 years later. $12-13/hour. Now I recognize some of this has to do with the trade agreements thrust upon the American workers. Hearing economic theory's expressing concerns of lowering demand while ignoring a hardworking families diminishing buying power is starting to grow old after watching from the sidelines for decades.

The blue collar workers of this nation truly have nobody on their side. Conservatives & liberals have both sold out the working class of this nation for decades. Both sides have supported/allowed free trade and the wage controls provided by illegal immigration. These influences were great for corporate America, not the American worker. Conservative trickle down economics and liberal labor unions have also left this nations working class in a sad state. One of these days these voters will educate themselves. When that happens, if these 'leaders' are lucky, all that will happen is getting voted out of office. I'm hoping they aren't so lucky.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Enforcing the border is a pipe dream.

It's also a giant moral hazard and I hope you don't plan on using the force of government to confiscate my hard earned money to try and not ever achieve this pipe dream.

Yea didn't think so.... Also a pipe dream.

Why is it a pipe dream? The only reason that it can't work is that those responsible for making it work lack the will to do so.

Why is it a moral hazard? Is it a moral hazard for you to defend your home from looters, criminals, and squatters? Why is it any different for us to do so collectively?

 

[Fargo]

Why is it a pipe dream? The only reason that it can't work is that those responsible for making it work lack the will to do so.

Why is it a moral hazard? Is it a moral hazard for you to defend your home from looters, criminals, and squatters? Why is it any different for us to do so collectively?

If you can't understand how rounding people up and ripping them from their home could be a moral hazard, I suggest that you see if you can tag along with the locals on a search warrant service as an outside observer. It all sounds like one thing in theory, but when you are actually there watching someone else's home get invaded, watching their stuff get through, watching them sit there helplessly, watching their kids cry and grow to hate, it puts what you propose into a different perspective. It is in my opinion one of the worst feelings in the world. Sure, they are criminals and a judge signed the warrant, but see if you still feel that there's no moral hazard in what you propose.

As you watch, remember that at the end of the day these people and their kids aren't even getting loaded on the bus and taken away.

Now I doubt many, if any, departments would allow a ride along on a warrant service, but your opinion might change if they did.

Or maybe you're just a much harder person that I am.

 

[IndyDave1776]

If you can't understand how rounding people up and ripping them from their home could be a moral hazard, I suggest that you see if you can tag along with the locals on a search warrant service as an outside observer. It all sounds like one thing in theory, but when you are actually there watching someone else's home get invaded, watching their stuff get through, watching them sit there helplessly, watching their kids cry and grow to hate, it puts what you propose into a different perspective. It is in my opinion one of the worst feelings in the world. Sure, they are criminals and a judge signed the warrant, but see if you still feel that there's no moral hazard and what you propose.

As you watch, remember that at the end of the day these people and their kids aren't even getting loaded on the bus and taken away.

Now I doubt many, if any, departments would allow a ride along on a warrant service, but your opinion might change if they did.

I don't doubt that it is not pleasant, but as I see it, willfully entering illegally comes with the same expectations I should have the day you go home from work and find me camped in your family room with the intent to stay a while.

One significant issue I see in the deal worked out when Reagan was in office is that it was supposed to be amnesty in exchange for fixing the problem. My view is that this is backward. First, find a workable way to control the border and then deal with those already here one way or another.

 

[Fargo]

I don't doubt that it is not pleasant, but as I see it, willfully entering illegally comes with the same expectations I should have the day you go home from work and find me camped in your family room with the intent to stay a while.

One significant issue I see in the deal worked out when Reagan was in office is that it was supposed to be amnesty in exchange for fixing the problem. My view is that this is backward. First, find a workable way to control the border and then deal with those already here one way or another.

Not pleasant doesn't come close to describing it. I honestly question if you comprehend depths of what you are proposing to do.

Remember that little illegal kid Elian Gonzalez with a MP5 in his face? Yeah, let's greatly expand THAT federal LEA.

You can church it up with whatever platitudes you want about this being your country and not theirs, but at the end of the day these are human beings we are talking about and their children are US citizens just the same as you and me.

Or maybe you are just a much harder person than I.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Not pleasant doesn't come close to describing it. I honestly question if you comprehend depths of what you are proposing to do.

Remember that little illegal kid Elian Gonzalez with a MP5 in his face? Yeah, let's greatly expand THAT federal LEA.

You can church it up with whatever platitudes you want about this being your country and not theirs, but at the end of the day these are human beings we are talking about and their children are US citizens just the same as you and me.

Or maybe you are just a much harder person than I.

Not awake enough for a really deep discussion, but the best I can offer at the moment is that it isn't a matter so much of being hardened as realizing that our society is confronted with a demand that it cannot bear. This also takes in a lot of territory that can't be addressed with one blanket solution. Controlling the border is not optional if we wish to have a country in the future. As for dealing with those who are already here, first, the criminals should be given their choice to leave now or be put out of our misery. If they come back, put them out of our misery. It is often overlooked that more of our citizens are killed her each year by illegals than have been killed total for the entire duration of the Afghanistan/Iraq war. That is just the ones killed. This does not account for any other crimes. It is indeed difficult to address the potential for collateral damage, but we also have to consider the collateral damage going the other way. It is much like when Richard Marcinko and his team assessed the security at our embassy in Beirut. Devices were available (which Marcinko found to work by accidentally blowing up a bomb factory driving around town) which broadcast random radio frequencies to set off the triggers which were in fashion at the time. After giving the ambassador a very unflattering review and recommending that these devices be installed at the corners of the embassy compound, the ambassador angrily dismissed the notion that there was anything wrong with there security and he particularly disliked those devices because they *could* harm innocent Lebanese. This was less than a month before that same embassy was successfully attacked with a car bomb killing. Marcinko would later address his ill will toward that ambassador whose attitude was essentially that there was no reason why Lebanese should die when Americans can die instead.

Anyway, my thoughts work something like this:

1. Control the border. Actually do it, not just pay lip service to it.

2. Get rid of the criminal aliens.

3. Offer the non-criminals a chance to come clean and devise a system for dealing with them compatible with the needs of the country rather than the real or perceived needs of those who have chosen to violate our country. Offer a path to citizenship for those who present a viable argument for keeping them or have a domestic sponsor as would be the case with a proper immigrant.

4. Correct the laws on illegal entry to serve as an actual deterrent for those who might manage to cross our improved border.

5. Allow the border patrol to take care of business. This is not your average law enforcement. This is national security, especially given that hostile terrorists have a virtually unobstructed avenue for illegal entry. let me emphasize that there is no reason why personnel charged with our national security should passively allow shots to be fired and chunks of concrete to be thrown at them regardless of which side of the line they may be on.

6. MAKE IT ABUNDANTLY CLEAR TO THOSE IN POWER IN MEXICO CITY THAT IF THEY DO NOT STOP ACTIVELY ASSISTING THEIR PEOPLE IN THE EFFORT TO BREAK OUR LAW THROUGH ILLEGAL ENTRY, THE REST OF THEIR LIVES ARE GOING TO GET VERY, VERY SHORT.