Turkey really shoots down a Mig today

[cobber]

"The American side, which leads the coalition that Turkey belongs to, knew about the location and time of our planes' flights, and we were hit exactly there and at that time,"

So let's see here. Vlad's boys (who are not really coordinating anything with us) fly their cold-war era fighter-bomber (a ripped off FB-111, we came out with that in the 60s and retired that fleet in the early 90s) without fighter cover into Turkish airspace (they are kind of bad with the whole coordination thing too), get their dumb asses smoked and this is our fault??
Putin says US knew flight path of Russian bomber shot down by Turkey | Fox News

He's just seeing if he can get Barry to apologize, or blame it on global warming (affected Russian navigation systems, doncha know?).

Then Barry will draw another fuchsia line he can later abandon.

 

[T.Lex]

Yeah, the full context of that is a bit different, though. The Turkish prime minister said something, in a half-hearted defense, that the Turkish authorities did not know it was a Russian plane. That was a mistake.

It is implausible to think that Turkey did not know it was an Su-24. Now, whether it was a Russian or Syrian plane might be in doubt. But, given the prevalence of Russian air activities in the area, that would've been a safe bet.

However, by saying they didn't know, he implied that if they HAD known, then maybe they would not have shot. That allowed Putin to mock the assertion with righteous indignation. Putin's statements about the identity of the aircraft included that it was properly "marked" as a Russian aircraft (presumably the roundels and such). The obvious problem with that is that the days of visual range dogfights are basically gone. The aircraft was shot down from at least 10 miles away, and maybe closer to 20. (That's based solely on a TLAR* view of the radar plots.) It is unlikely the pilots had any sort of visual identification of the Su-24.

*TLAR = That Looks About Right

 

[T.Lex]

A bit more table-pounding:
Turkey warns Russia not to 'play with fire' over downed jet - BBC News

On Thursday, Turkey's President Erdogan seemed to offer an olive branch to Moscow when he told France 24 TV: "If we had known it was a Russian plane, maybe we would have warned it differently." On Friday, he accused Moscow of "playing with fire" and "lying".

Did he change his rhetoric dramatically in less than 24 hours? Hardly. The first message was delivered to a Western audience, the second, to a domestic.
...
In a televised speech, Mr Erdogan warned Russia it was "playing with fire to attack the Syrian opposition, who have international legitimacy, under the pretext of fighting against Daesh".

Putin wants an apology from Turkey before any meeting. That's effectively like saying there will be no meeting.

Both sides are painting themselves into corners.

 

[IndyDave1776]

A bit more table-pounding:
Turkey warns Russia not to 'play with fire' over downed jet - BBC News


Putin wants an apology from Turkey before any meeting. That's effectively like saying there will be no meeting.

Both sides are painting themselves into corners.

Perhaps, but we can't ignore the fact that this amounts to a dispute between a chihuahua (Erdogan) backed up by a jellyfish (Obama) and an alligator (Putin).

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Learn something new every day. I didn't realize that there was such a thing as a pod for the C/D. What I did realize is that not equipping the F4 with a gun in the first place was nothing short of someone's d**k measuring fantasy regarding the awesomeness of an 'all missile' fighter for the first time with no regard given to using the right tool for the right job.

At the time, military thinking was that "dogfighting" was a thing of the past, especially with the speeds at which combat jets were flying. Turned out they were wrong.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Perhaps, but we can't ignore the fact that this amounts to a dispute between a chihuahua (Erdogan) backed up by a jellyfish (Obama) and an alligator (Putin).

I'm not so sure you're right about this. Some analysts seem to think Putin is in a fairly weak position, economy-wise and that, while he's playing his hand masterfully (against dunces and militarily weak - or just weak-minded - opponents) he really can't afford to spread his military resources too far. Hence the limited deployment of Spetznaz and aerial assets to Syria. If he decides to get frisky with Turkey, he may be able to get something done, but it will likely cost him more than he's willing to pay.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I'm not so sure you're right about this. Some analysts seem to think Putin is in a fairly weak position, economy-wise and that, while he's playing his hand masterfully (against dunces and militarily weak - or just weak-minded - opponents) he really can't afford to spread his military resources too far. Hence the limited deployment of Spetznaz and aerial assets to Syria. If he decides to get frisky with Turkey, he may be able to get something done, but it will likely cost him more than he's willing to pay.

As far as the personalities go, I have no doubt. As for paying the cost, it is possible that Putin really can't comfortably afford the resources, believes it can be done economically, or has outside backing (perhaps some covert Chinese participation) while standing as the front man. With him, you never know, as opposed to the Kenyan who just makes you stand there shaking your head at his ineptitude.

 

[BugI02]

Learn something new every day. I didn't realize that there was such a thing as a pod for the C/D. What I did realize is that not equipping the F4 with a gun in the first place was nothing short of someone's d**k measuring fantasy regarding the awesomeness of an 'all missile' fighter for the first time with no regard given to using the right tool for the right job.

View attachment 43216

 

[KellyinAvon]

View attachment 43216

It looks cool, but it was the textbook definition of "spray and pray".

Awesome pic, was that at a museum?

 

[BugI02]

It looks cool, but it was the textbook definition of "spray and pray".

Awesome pic, was that at a museum?

Yep. All restored and pretty and it is on a C-model I believe.


ETA: Nope, I'm wrong. Its at Pima Air & Space museum in Tuscon and the display inside the museum is an E-model

 

[KellyinAvon]

Yep. All restored and pretty and it is on a C-model I believe.


ETA: Nope, I'm wrong. Its at Pima Air & Space museum in Tuscon and the display inside the museum is an E-model

The pretty made me think it was a museum. E-Models had the internal 20mm and had a 30mm gun pod. I remember an old Phantom pilot saying you'd be better off turning the gun pod around and using it for more thrust.

 

[BugI02]

Its my understanding the gun pod attached on or near the centerline and it was the gunsight that was lacking. I have seen some old footage ( on wings over vietnam - miss that show ) of testing of a prototype pod that was wing mounted, which was a real cluster****

 

[IndyDave1776]

Its my understanding the gun pod attached on or near the centerline and it was the gunsight that was lacking. I have seen some old footage ( on wings over vietnam - miss that show ) of testing of a prototype pod that was wing mounted, which was a real cluster****

I could see how going from a wing mount to a centerline mount would add up to an upgrade from 'wild-ass guess' to 'scientific wild-ass guess'.

 

[BugI02]

But the flipside is it's hard to 'go to guns' when you don't have any guns.

 

[IndyDave1776]

But the flipside is it's hard to 'go to guns' when you don't have any guns.

Definitely. I would rather SWAG with the gun I have than have a good crisp display with nothing to back it up!

 

[atvdave]

It's heating up more for Turkey & Russia... Turkey just closed off the Black Sea...


https://www.superstation95.com/index.php/world/587

 

[IndyDave1776]

It's heating up more for Turkey & Russia... Turkey just closed off the Black Sea...


https://www.superstation95.com/index.php/world/587

Sounds like it's about to get real.

 

[Thor]

Real and real big. As I pointed out earlier the downing of the Russian jet was an act of war, countries not at war don't shoot each other down for airspace violations. And likewise countries waging a war tend not to violate the airspace of other nations with armed aircraft. The closing of the Bosporus Straits is likewise an act of war...and the shelling of troops in Syria. https://www.superstation95.com/index.php/world/583

Meanwhile our POTUS dithers in Paris about climate change. Well, folks, the climate she be changing and the rain and warming really are man made this time. The only question is going to be how big the storm.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Real and real big. As I pointed out earlier the downing of the Russian jet was an act of war, countries not at war don't shoot each other down for airspace violations. And likewise countries waging a war tend not to violate the airspace of other nations with armed aircraft. The closing of the Bosporus Straits is likewise an act of war...and the shelling of troops in Syria. https://www.superstation95.com/index.php/world/583

Meanwhile our POTUS dithers in Paris about climate change. Well, folks, the climate she be changing and the rain and warming really are man made this time. The only question is going to be how big the storm.

You fly a warplane over another nation's sovereign territory, you run the risk of it being shot down. Turkey was completely justified. Russia has been playing recklessly, and this time it was Turkey who did the stuffing. **** Russia.

 

[cobber]

You fly a warplane over another nation's sovereign territory, you run the risk of it being shot down. Turkey was completely justified. Russia has been playing recklessly, and this time it was Turkey who did the stuffing. **** Russia.

Famous last words of how many folks who have tangled with Russia.


Let's see how NATO responds if the balloon really goes up. I mean, it's not like climate-change serious, and the 80's got their foreign policy back, so it's all cool.