Turkey really shoots down a Mig today

[KellyinAvon]

I have to wonder what exactly the Turks used to bring down a Sukhoi and who sold it to them?

91-008 has worn Turkish AF colors since it rolled off the line. The link below can get you info on all F-16s. 81-776 was a hanger queen at Moody AFB back in the day, it's now with the Jordanian AF. 78-001 is at a memorial on Langley AFB, Virginia.

Airframe Details for F-16 #91-0008

 

[actaeon277]

So.
No memes with a turkey shooting down a SU yet?

 

[IndyDave1776]

So.
No memes with a turkey shooting down a SU yet?

That was the first thing to cross my mind the first time I read the thread title.

Seriously, according to Fox (no link as I saw it on television while stopping at McD's), it was a Sidewinder.

 

[BugI02]

All Russian bombers in Syria will now be escorted by fighters.

Putin: Turkey downed Russian fighter jet to protect ISIS oil sales

Russia deploys missile cruiser off Syria coast, ordered to destroy any target posing danger

Turkish military release radar image tracking Russian fighter jet over Turkish territory before attack. Radar shows Russian jet only over Turkey for 10 seconds.

Gotta ask again...

Who's lying here? US? NATO? Turkey? Russia?

I'm going to go with ..... Everybody

 

[BugI02]

Yeah, this specific shoot was an ambush. The Turks, it appears, launched to shoot this a/c down for violating its airspace. This is generally an action of countries that are at war with each other, not just in disagreement about targets in another country or where the border is. We intercept and escort airplanes out of our airspace we don't shoot them down unless they are threatening us in some way.

There was also a hot-line that could have been used to warn him off that the Russians say 'didn't ring'. It also begs the question of what frequency the Turks were warning them on.

Either way, the players in this area...pretty much all of them...are not known for acting professionally and not pushing others around. The Russians are pushing the Turks who are pushing back. We're in a crowded field where the players are all starting to take swings at each other.

Yeah, ambush. Like shooting down a 747 minutes after it had inadvertantly strayed over Sakhalin Island or providing your proteges the equipment to bring down a 777 and then helping them cover it up

 

[IndyDave1776]

I'm going to go with ..... Everybody

I would say we are pretty well on the same page. The most charitable plausible conclusion is that all participants have their unique spin on the situation--which is really much like substituting the word 'shrinkage' for 'theft'.

 

[BugI02]

--which is really much like substituting the word 'shrinkage' for 'theft'.

As long as we're not talking about Seinfeld

 

[KellyinAvon]

Looks like Vlad's boys are bringing in an S-400 system. That's an IADS (Integrated Air Defense System) that uses SA-21 surface to air missiles. When I was young MSgt KellyinAvon at a place called Air Combat Command (2003-2006) I remember the Strategic Plans guys saying we had to have 5th generation fighters (F-22/F-35) because F-15s and F-16s couldn't survive against double-digit SAMs. Keep in mind an SA-6 brought down an F-16 during the Balkans fiascoes slick willie got us into, but its arguable whether McGrady had his electronic countermeasures (ECM) pod in O-N mode (turned to the ON position opposed to O-F-F mode, which like most things ECM pods don't work in O-F-F mode). The F-16C Block 40 (91-008) that smoked an Su-24 with an AIM-120 AMRAAM (that has been around about 25 years) can't survive against SA-21s.

This is about to get real interesting.


Russia beefs up military assets in Syria in response to Turkey?s downing of jet | Fox News

S-400 Triumf / SA-21 Growler

 

[IndyDave1776]

Looks like Vlad's boys are bringing in an S-400 system. That's an IADS (Integrated Air Defense System) that uses SA-21 surface to air missiles. When I was young MSgt KellyinAvon at a place called Air Combat Command (2003-2006) I remember the Strategic Plans guys saying we had to have 5th generation fighters (F-22/F-35) because F-15s and F-16s couldn't survive against double-digit SAMs. Keep in mind an SA-6 brought down an F-16 during the Balkans fiascoes slick willie got us into, but its arguable whether McGrady had his electronic countermeasures (ECM) pod in O-N mode (turned to the ON position opposed to O-F-F mode, which like most things ECM pods don't work in O-F-F mode). The F-16C Block 40 (91-008) that smoked an Su-24 with an AIM-120 AMRAAM (that has been around about 25 years) can't survive against SA-21s.

This is about to get real interesting.


Russia beefs up military assets in Syria in response to Turkey?s downing of jet | Fox News

S-400 Triumf / SA-21 Growler

Oh yes, remind us again how the F-22 was cancelled after the introduction of a scant few operational units so all the funding could be dumped into teh F-35 which works about as well as screen doors on submarines.

 

[KellyinAvon]

Oh yes, remind us again how the F-22 was cancelled after the introduction of a scant few operational units so all the funding could be dumped into teh F-35 which works about as well as screen doors on submarines.

I don't think I need to.

 

[Drail]

I worked on F4 C/D weapons control systems in the 70s. APQ 109 all tube radar. That AIM 120 missile brings home the bacon if it's running in spec. The ones we had worked almost half the time. The pilots hated them.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I worked on F4 C/D weapons control systems in the 70s. APQ 109 all tube radar. That AIM 120 missile brings home the bacon if it's running in spec. The ones we had worked almost half the time. The pilots hated them.

Only half the time? I hope this has improved in the last 30 or so years!

 

[Drail]

Oh they absolutely have improved but the radar guided missiles we used in Vietnam were terrible. We used mainly AIM 7 and AIM 9 missiles.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Oh they absolutely have improved but the radar guided missiles we used in Vietnam were terrible. We used mainly AIM 7 and AIM 9 missiles.

Definitely.

For the uninitiated, I will point out that the AIM 7 'Sparrow' required the launching aircraft to keep the target 'painted' with radar, requiring the pilot to keep his plane pointed at the enemy plane for the entire duration of the missile flight otherwise it would simply stray off in the direction it happened to be flying until it burned out its fuel supply, where the AIM 120 AMRAAM is self-illuminating, generating its own outgoing radar, making it a 'fire and forget' missile not requiring anything from the launching aircraft or its pilot after launch. At least that is what the brochure says. Your mileage may vary depending on the vintage of the missile and the maintenance program.

Also, if memory serves, in Vietnam, weren't we still using early versions of the AIM 9 that would allow an enemy pilot who detected the missile launch in a timely fashion to turn toward the sun and then veer off allowing the missile to lock on the sun's heat signature and continue toward it until it burned out its fuel?

 

[KellyinAvon]

Definitely.

For the uninitiated, I will point out that the AIM 7 'Sparrow' required the launching aircraft to keep the target 'painted' with radar, requiring the pilot to keep his plane pointed at the enemy plane for the entire duration of the missile flight otherwise it would simply stray off in the direction it happened to be flying until it burned out its fuel supply, where the AIM 120 AMRAAM is self-illuminating, generating its own outgoing radar, making it a 'fire and forget' missile not requiring anything from the launching aircraft or its pilot after launch. At least that is what the brochure says. Your mileage may vary depending on the vintage of the missile and the maintenance program.

Also, if memory serves, in Vietnam, weren't we still using early versions of the AIM 9 that would allow an enemy pilot who detected the missile launch in a timely fashion to turn toward the sun and then veer off allowing the missile to lock on the sun's heat signature and continue toward it until it burned out its fuel?

There were definitely problems with the missiles in that era. I saw an interview with Robin Olds where he said they'd just launch two since the performance was so bad. F-4 C/D had no gun unless it was in a pod either. The E model fixed that problem around 1967.

 

[IndyDave1776]

There were definitely problems with the missiles in that era. I saw an interview with Robin Olds where he said they'd just launch two since the performance was so bad. F-4 C/D had no gun unless it was in a pod either. The E model fixed that problem around 1967.

Learn something new every day. I didn't realize that there was such a thing as a pod for the C/D. What I did realize is that not equipping the F4 with a gun in the first place was nothing short of someone's d**k measuring fantasy regarding the awesomeness of an 'all missile' fighter for the first time with no regard given to using the right tool for the right job.

 

[Thor]

Today's AIM-120's are very good. As is the AIM-9X. Like the Python the pilots need helmet mounted displays so they can just look at you and shoot as you go by. The missiles actually turn around and chase you.

Next up..."lasers". No kidding. 100k watts of now you're just vapor.

I flew an F4C...we used as many as 5 strap on gun pods...you could hear yourself coming over the mike of your wingman as he said "Holy S#!^!" Silly, but silly fun.

 

[T.Lex]

I guess the newer -9s have a range up to 20 miles. I know the Israelis really maxed out that technology and may've shared it with us.

If that's the case, it could possibly have been a Sidewinder. The shot was around 20 miles, from what I can tell.

 

[cobber]

Any new developments?

This could be the conflagration ISIS has been hoping for around Dabiq.

 

[KellyinAvon]

"The American side, which leads the coalition that Turkey belongs to, knew about the location and time of our planes' flights, and we were hit exactly there and at that time,"

So let's see here. Vlad's boys (who are not really coordinating anything with us) fly their cold-war era fighter-bomber (a ripped off FB-111, we came out with that in the 60s and retired that fleet in the early 90s) without fighter cover into Turkish airspace (they are kind of bad with the whole coordination thing too), get their dumb asses smoked and this is our fault??
Putin says US knew flight path of Russian bomber shot down by Turkey | Fox News