Turkey really shoots down a Mig today

[T.Lex]

So... Russia Today (or RT, nowadays) is a Russian news agency in the vein of the old TASS during the Soviet era. Here's a snippet of what it is publishing:
https://www.rt.com/op-edge/323635-washington-erdogan-turkey-russia-putin/

It makes sense that Washington sanctioned the aerial ambush knowing that the resulting geopolitical tension would scupper moves elsewhere from French President Francois Hollande for the formation of a broader anti-IS coalition to include the participation of Russia.
Why the US is not serious about forming such a coalition, indeed is implacably opposed to it, is because Islamic State and other jihadist mercenaries are a covert creation of the US and its NATO allies, including Turkey, for the objective of regime change in Syria.

With links to:
https://www.rt.com/op-edge/323539-nato-turkey-kurds-russia/

Perhaps it was no coincidence that Russian President Vladimir Putin chose the G20 in the Turkish city of Antalya to disclose the shocking information that terrorism is being financed by individual businessmen from 40 countries, including from member states of the G20.
"I provided examples related to our data on the financing of Islamic State units by natural persons in various countries. The financing comes from 40 countries, as we established, including some G20 members," Putin told reporters following the summit.
This earth-shattering news barely registered a blip on the Western mainstream media radar.
Just days after Putin's hot potato landed in the lap of the Western elite, a Russian fighter jet on a mission to take out Islamic State targets was shot out of the sky by two Turkish F-16 fighter jets – without due warning or provocation.

And...
https://www.rt.com/news/323603-isis-oil-smuggling-turkey/

Islamic State’s daring and impudent oil smuggling into Turkey should become a high-priority target in order to cripple the terrorist group, President Putin said, backed by French President Francois Hollande. Both agree that the source of terrorist financing must be hit first and foremost.
...
However, the Turkish leadership is not rushing to investigate whether any of the ISIS oil smuggling routes end up in Turkey, with President Recep Tayyip Erdogan himself refuting any suspicions that Syrian oil might be getting into his country illegally as absolute “slander.”
“Those who claim we buy oil from Daesh [ISIS] are obliged to prove it,” Erdogan said earlier on Thursday in an attempt to shift the blame for ISIS oil profits onto Damascus. “If not, you are a slanderer. Shame on you!”
“ISIL sells the oil they drill to Assad. To Assad. Talk this over with Assad you support,” Erdogan said, as cited by AFP.

Building the case that Turkey is in collaboration with Daesh, which is itself a US creation, and acting on behalf of the USian bogeyman.

 

[cobber]

Hopefully, cooler heads will prevail. This is where alliances become sticky.

Alliances are always sticky. The key is not to be stuck when the shooting starts.


Looking for the Russians to form a pan-Orthodox front against the Ottomans, erm, Turks...

 

[T.Lex]

Looking for the Russians to form a pan-Orthodox front against the Ottomans, erm, Turks...

Paging Mr. Foszoe, would Mr. Foszoe please pick up the yellow courtesy phone. Mr. Foszoe, please pick up the yellow courtesy phone.

Anyway, in the "strange bedfellows" department, it looks like Turkey, Ukraine and Georgia v. Russia, Syria and Greece might be the early dotted lines. I don't see any mainstream reporting of Turkey closing off the Black Sea, so I doubt it happened.

It will take something more serious for NATO to send hardware into the region in support of Turkey.

And that's not to minimize things. Right now, there are a hundred different ways things could get more serious without anyone trying very hard.

 

[T.Lex]

The BBC is repeating the "Turkey Protecting Daesh Oil" claim by Russia.
Russia says Turkey 'shot down plane for IS oil' - BBC News

The article doesn't say who within the Russian gov't is making the allegation, but suggests it is Putin himself. I suspect he approves of the message, but I don't think he's actually said it.

ETA:
Oops. I sit corrected:
https://www.rt.com/news/324045-putin-erdogan-su-downing/

“We have every reason to believe that the decision to down our plane was guided by a desire to ensure security of this oil’s delivery routes to ports where they are shipped in tankers,” Putin said.
...
Answering a question as to whether Moscow wants to form a broad based anti-terrorist coalition, Putin said Russia has always supported this initiative, “but this cannot be done while someone continues to use several terrorist organizations to reach their immediate goals.”

 

[BugI02]

Gotta disagree. The Turkish Navy would IMO smash the Black Sea Fleet. As for the respective air forces, we can't just look at pure numbers, because obviously the Russians have that advantage. The question is how many aircraft can Russia field if a conflict ensued. It's a pretty fair bet that it will be "all hands on deck" for Turkey, but Russia in no way can do the same. If they committed all theater military capabilities to a Turkish campaign, the would be quite vulnerable to attack from other NATO forces, if they decided to join the fray.

At which time we can merge this thread with "Did World War 3 Just Start?" I imagine

 

[Cygnus]

Alliances are always sticky. The key is not to be stuck when the shooting starts.


Looking for the Russians to form a pan-Orthodox front against the Ottomans, erm, Turks...

This assumes Orthodox unity. Of which there is little.....Main rivals? Russia/Greece

 

[T.Lex]

Regarding the Black Sea "blockade," I still haven't seen any mention of it in any MSM or Russian-controlled news agency. If it were true, or even close to true, I think RT would be all over it.

I wonder if the stationary Black Sea Fleet is more related to the energy crisis in the Crimean. It would make some sense that the ships are staying at anchor to provide resources for the civilians who are running diesel generators for power.

Which leads to another issue: coincidence. Ukrainian "rebels" (against Russia) completely take down the power grid supplying energy to the Black Sea, then Turkey shoots down a Russian plane? The odds of those happening within days of each other seem very high.

 

[Birds Away]

Gotta disagree. The Turkish Navy would IMO smash the Black Sea Fleet.

What makes you think so?

 

[Kutnupe14]

What makes you think so?

The Black Sea Fleet is hardly the legendary force it was during the Cold War. For years they relied on cooperation with the Ukraine, and ignored a good part of their fleet. I don't think they can even field a capable force to challenge the Turks, and I think Turkish airpower would make the difference. That's just my opinion.

 

[IndyDave1776]

The Black Sea Fleet is hardly the legendary force it was during the Cold War. For years they relied on cooperation with the Ukraine, and ignored a good part of their fleet. I don't think they can even field a capable force to challenge the Turks, and I think Turkish airpower would make the difference. That's just my opinion.

I wouldn't disagree that the Russkies haven't maintained the Black Sea Fleet to the standard of the British Home Fleet of World War II, but then again, when did the Turks become a major power in the last few centuries?

 

[T.Lex]

Now, in fairness to the TuAF, they still have F-4Es. That gives them a style advantage that is hard to beat.

On the other hand, when it comes to air superiority, the cooperation of NATO figures prominently in their planning. The F-16 v. Su-27 fights would be legendary (and have already been fought in several flightsim forums I used to be part of), but would involve significant attrition on both sides. Without NATO, Russia has the upper hand. (Pardon the pun.)

 

[Birds Away]

The Black Sea Fleet is hardly the legendary force it was during the Cold War. For years they relied on cooperation with the Ukraine, and ignored a good part of their fleet. I don't think they can even field a capable force to challenge the Turks, and I think Turkish airpower would make the difference. That's just my opinion.

It's very hard to say. I worked with the Turks several times. Both the Turks and the Russians rely too much on their officers. They are the technicians and the operators. The enlisted guys just do the grunt work. I think it would be pretty close but the Russians have a lot more anti-ship weapons available and put a lot more emphasis on that skill set.

 

[T.Lex]

Also, in terms of air superiority, the Russian SAM/AAA assets are pretty robust.

In quick googling, the Russians made up some serious style points by retaining the An-2 for the Black Sea Fleet. That little gem is the largest production military biplane. The thing has such lift that if it flies into a 30 kt headwind, it can actually fly backwards. I don't think there's a stall rating on it.

Of course, when it comes to nostalgia coolness and badassery, nothing beats the F-4.

 

[Birds Away]

I'm kinda partial to the F-14.

 

[T.Lex]

I'm kinda partial to the F-14.

Undoubtedly a beautiful aircraft. And could've seen a longer lifespan if updated for more ground attack. Alas, it was also expensive to maintain.

Fly Navy.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I'm kinda partial to the F-14.

Undoubtedly a beautiful aircraft. And could've seen a longer lifespan if updated for more ground attack. Alas, it was also expensive to maintain.

Fly Navy.

I am with Birds Away here. The F-14 platform had much to offer and was retired prematurely. Anything operated from a carrier is going to be expensive to maintain just because of the rigors of catapult launches and arrestor wire landing/controlled crashes. The basic aircraft was extremely good, especially after the switch to the GE engines which did not have the compressor stall issues of the original Pratt and Whitney engines. Throw in some electronics and missile updates, and it would still be golden. One of my favorite proposals was a two-stage extended range AMRAAM which would have simply had an extra stage to carry the missile something on the order of 50+ miles for long range intercepts rather than trying to rework the quirky Hughes Phoenix. It basically would have generated the desired results without spending the same R&D money twice. I guess the F-14 just couldn't compete with adolescent wet dreams which still haven't seen operational status yet, even though they were supposed to be ready as the F-14s were taken out of service.

 

[cobber]

This assumes Orthodox unity. Of which there is little.....Main rivals? Russia/Greece

Ah, but Islam is unified? Erm. Then we have to explain why all the "refugees" haven't been taken into neighboring Islamic countries.


I was being *somewhat* tongue in cheek about an Orthodox union, but I am betting they would be more resolute than the effete WEURans in facing threats from terrorism.

 

[T.Lex]

And today, it gets personal.

Syria conflict: Russia accuses Erdogan of trading oil with IS - BBC News

Deputy Defence Minister Anatoly Antonov said Turkey was the biggest buyer of "stolen" oil from Syria and Iraq.
...
"According to available information, the highest level of the political leadership of the country, President Erdogan and his family, are involved in this criminal business," Mr Antonov told journalists in Moscow.

 

[printcraft]

And today, it gets personal.

Syria conflict: Russia accuses Erdogan of trading oil with IS - BBC News

True.

 

[pudly]

And today, it gets personal.

Syria conflict: Russia accuses Erdogan of trading oil with IS - BBC News

Not so much personal as out in the open.

Russia Presents Detailed Evidence Of ISIS-Turkey Oil Trade