The President Trump Immigration Thread

[T.Lex]

Avoiding the boring parts where we agree to say, again...

That's the way the law is written, full stop, end of story.

The law mostly doesn't matter.

That they have a procedure for Congressional review is great and all, and it'd be interesting if it ever gets that far, but that law doesn't change the parts where we agree (I think). That is, POTUS alone has the power (and always has had the power) to declare an emergency.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

The short answer is, yes, he has.

That money has been appropriated for other projects, probably specifically, but also possibly by a category. Like "barracks at a military base." (I happen to have personal knowledge of a military construction project overseas that is now in jeopardy because of this.)

This kinda explains one example.
https://appropriations.house.gov/ne...2019-on-energy-and-water-development-military

It describes an appropriation specifically for VA hospital improvements.

Think of it this way, if the appropriation was for "Military Construction Projects" and the POTUS had discretion, then there wouldn't be any need for an emergency. He could just use his discretion and spend it on what he wanted.

But Congress wised up to that a LONG time ago. (This also plays out locally, because in Indiana the fiscal body - usually some form of a legislative branch - does appropriations kinda like this, too.) Appropriations almost always have some strings attached. "Here's a billion dollars for X, but you have spend at least 1/4 on X1 and X2."

So, by declaring an emergency, he can turn those funds into discretionary spending.

Again, as an executive power to be used judiciously, I think this is appropriate. If there is a sudden emergency that means we have to spend money, I kinda don't care where POTUS finds it, invasion, fire, flood, pestilence, whatever.

But this wall thing isn't a real emergency, IMHO. The problem with that is that the only vote that counts is POTUS. For me, this is comparable to the pardon/clemency decision. It is almost strictly an executive decision. (Which means the character of the officeholder becomes very important.)

So he CAN do this (legally until the courts say otherwise), but in your (and many others') opinion, he SHOULDN'T. I don't have a problem with that. Opinions differ. What matters to me most is, is he breaking the law as it stands today? I don't think he is. I do think we need a wall as a part of immigration reform. I wish the whole immigration system would be addressed by congress, including funding for the wall, but I also know that I can wish in one hand and spit in the other and I know which one's gonna fill up faster.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

I REFER YOU TO:

What you snipped is that the law says it's a National Emergency when and if the President declares it as such. Your picture supports his decision to do so, but doesn't affect the law in the least.

 

[T.Lex]

So he CAN do this (legally until the courts say otherwise), but in your (and many others') opinion, he SHOULDN'T. I don't have a problem with that. Opinions differ. What matters to me most is, is he breaking the law as it stands today? I don't think he is. I do think we need a wall as a part of immigration reform. I wish the whole immigration system would be addressed by congress, including funding for the wall, but I also know that I can wish in one hand and spit in the other and I know which one's gonna fill up faster.

Yeah, I'm not sure where I may have been vague, but I've thought all along that POTUS has this power. I think its an abuse of the power to use it in this way, but he still has it.

And, frankly, while other reasonable attorneys may disagree, I think Trump is more likely to win on this issue in a court than whoever challenges it.

But, in other contexts, I'm concerned that such an exercise of the power (and potentially judicial confirmation of it) is another blow to the structural integrity of our republic.

I think the "need" for a wall is overblown and has become a political division symbol. It won't meaningfully impact illegal immigration, and literally does nothing with regard to the status of the millions of law abiding illegal aliens here already (and have been for at least a generation). I'd much prefer something that addresses that problem, but it doesn't lend itself to campaign rally applause lines.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Avoiding the boring parts where we agree to say, again...



The law mostly doesn't matter.

That they have a procedure for Congressional review is great and all, and it'd be interesting if it ever gets that far, but that law doesn't change the parts where we agree (I think). That is, POTUS alone has the power (and always has had the power) to declare an emergency.

I haven't looked to see if the President has constitutional authority to declare National Emergencies (other than martial law), but we agree that it's his sole discretion under the current laws as to what constitutes a National Emergency. When he declares that it is, legally, it is. Period.

ETA: Martial law is Article One, not Two, so errata on that.

 

[T.Lex]

I haven't looked to see if the President has constitutional authority to declare National Emergencies (other than martial law), but we agree that it's his sole discretion under the current laws as to what constitutes a National Emergency. When he declares that it is, legally, it is. Period.

Yeah. For good or ill, that's the way I see it.

ETA:
Now what do we do?

 

[jamil]

Sigh

1) Nice jump from the specific to the general, if I were channeling a certain member I would challenge you to prove I had ever criticized Dolt 44's use of pen and phone and chastize you for interpreting a lack of documented criticism of 45's use thereof as applause

2) A few Trumpers didn't force you to do anything, they narrowed your choices when the time came to vote to include one possibility that they approved of. Did you do anything to support your preferred candidate besides sit back and *****? If a few Trumpers were so powerful, what might a few [your preferred candidate here] supporters have accomplished? You were [STRIKE]beaten[/STRIKE] thrashed within the bounds of the existing system, perhaps it's time to deal with that particular disappointment. Given the inputs at the gate that was you, you chose 1 instead of 0 - without a schematic we'll take your word that no other output was possible

3) Now you admit you had a choice, even if it was Hobsonian; but we're back to the classic critique of Trump supporters for not being able to see the Hitler for the trees. I've asked before, why is it so important that we join the Greek Chorus? Will that change the dilemma you claim you're in now? You're doing enough 'holding him accountable' for ten of us, so why is it so important to proselytize, to win converts? Do you need the support of others to reinforce your own convictions that you're correct about Trump?

4) You seem to hold it true by inspection that Democrats will only exceed their future presidential authority to declare national emergencies because Trump did. This is by no means empirical, you need to offer some proof. I have previously mentioned that they were able to nuke the filibuster all on their own without Republican help. I interpret that to mean they are quite capable of abusing the NEA (or anything else) without someone showing them the way. Like the plenary presidential power on immigration, you should be *****ing about congress ever having made such sweeping powers available to the president in the first place and advocating for constitutional seperation of powers to be reinstated

Did you do a single thing to change your circumstances besides write about it on INGO? What have you done in the realz to bring rank order voting one iota closer to existence? I most certainly have no wish to silence your voice, I just reject that being a Trump supporter is the root of all evils and aver that we are far better off with him than without. Save the coulda/woulda/shoulda for an episode of Timeless (unless you're worried that showing Democrats how to time travel to change history to one we like better might be abused)

I, for one, tire of being nagged to follow The Marquis of Queensbury's rules in what hass obviously always been a bare knuckle street brawl. Does annoying Trumpers count as some kind of success on your part of the political spectrum? Congrats.

We don't have trains here in Columbus, so do let me know if they're running on time. When the Gestaat Polizei come for you, you can hide in my attic

Translation: I'm tired of rule of law and stuff because that means the other citizens of this country get to disagree and have a say in what my president can do.

1) I've been quite specific enough in this and other related discussions. I never said you specifically had criticized Obama.

2) The few trumpers insisted on nominating a guy dumb as a bag of ****, through a flawed process that can easily be gamed. There's a bit more to it than that, but nothing I need to say more about it. The thing I did do to support my preferred candidate was vote in the primary, so I don't know what else you're after there. I didn't vote for the bag of **** guy in the primaries because I thought (confirmed, btw) that he's an authoritarian, and he would certainly do things to abuse his power. It's not that I'm not disappointed in or lamenting things of the past. We're well beyond that and I'd prefer to live in the here and now. I'm explaining how we got here, and how my primary concern about trumpers being incapable of criticizing him has come to pass.

3) When I say I didn't have a choice, I'm talking about the Hobson's choice. Which isn't actually a choice. Is there something else I need to clear up for you about that?

4) Of course it remains to be seen how the Democrats will use this newly discovered way to abuse power. However, now that Trump has shown them the way to their utopia, I don't know why we wouldn't take the HBICOTH's (head ***** in charge of the House) word for it. I'd say the best guard against that would be the courts kneeing Trump in the groin. At least that's much more reliable than hoping the other side won't screw you with your own shaft.

5) I'm not saying being a Trump supporter is the root of all evils. Support who you like. Would kinda be nice if it was possible to see some flaws in your own guy and admit them. Is it possible that because of that fierce loyalty, you can't criticize him because you feel that gives aid and comfort to the enemy? Is that it? Or, is it really the BAMN principle that some of you pretty much admit to? Is there even a line he could cross?

 

[T.Lex]

\At least that's much more reliable than hoping the other side won't screw you with your own shaft.

It seems like there's a TWSS joke in there, but I can't figure out the angle.

(TWSS.)

 

[mmpsteve]

1. Your use of the word invasion. What does the picture below look like to you?
2. The character of the officeholder. So we finally have a president with enough character to try to change illegal immigration. Show me where you think anyone else 'of character' is going to show up in Congress or the Executive branch to do this in our lifetime. Your points are duly noted and understood, but the pic below is just scary, and yes, a proper barrier might just slow this **** down.

p.s.: and to echo someone else's point, do you really believe the Dem's ever planned to play nice, and that this latest twist will incentivize them to do bad things? They're going to do as much as they can get away with, no matter what is done from the conservative side.

, invasion, (Which means the character of the officeholder becomes very important.)

I REFER YOU TO:

 

[T.Lex]

IIRC, that was from the "caravan" around last year's election, right?

So, what actually happened to that? Did they invade? Did we need a guy on a wall with a gun to take sentry duty and sound the alarm?

No. It fell apart. As they all have. As they all will.

Because our border is secure from invasion. If Trump REALLY thought it was invasion, then a slight tweak to the Bush Doctrine and we could've sent A-10s up and down that invasion force as a preventative measure.

But he knows it is more effective to use that kind of propaganda.

 

[jamil]

1. Your use of the word invasion. What does the picture below look like to you?
2. The character of the officeholder. So we finally have a president with enough character to try to change illegal immigration. Show me where you think anyone else 'of character' is going to show up in Congress or the Executive branch to do this in our lifetime. Yours points are duly noted and understood, but the pic below is just scary.

So that justifies the abuse of emergency powers to do what he couldn't get done in congress?

By the time any wall gets build under this "emergency", those people will have gone wherever it is they end up. Maybe they'll be sent back. I dunno. The thing we end up with will not be worth the power gained by the executive branch if the courts don't kick Trump in the balls.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Yeah, I'm not sure where I may have been vague, but I've thought all along that POTUS has this power. I think its an abuse of the power to use it in this way, but he still has it.

And, frankly, while other reasonable attorneys may disagree, I think Trump is more likely to win on this issue in a court than whoever challenges it.

But, in other contexts, I'm concerned that such an exercise of the power (and potentially judicial confirmation of it) is another blow to the structural integrity of our republic.

I think the "need" for a wall is overblown and has become a political division symbol. It won't meaningfully impact illegal immigration, and literally does nothing with regard to the status of the millions of law abiding illegal aliens here already (and have been for at least a generation). I'd much prefer something that addresses that problem, but it doesn't lend itself to campaign rally applause lines.

I agree. But to restate what I said earlier, we can prefer in one hand and ... well, you know.

 

[BugI02]

[snippety]

5) I'm not saying being a Trump supporter is the root of all evils. Support who you like. Would kinda be nice if it was possible to see some flaws in your own guy and admit them. Is it possible that because of that fierce loyalty, you can't criticize him because you feel that gives aid and comfort to the enemy? Is that it? Or, is it really the BAMN principle that some of you pretty much admit to? Is there even a line he could cross?

Is it possible, just barely possible, that you and the legalist wing of INGO are doing such a bang-up job of criticizing every. little. thing. that Trump does (with certain grudging exceptions) that I don't feel the need to join the chorus?

You never, ever answer the question about why it is so important to have vocal converts to your viewpoint. Is it that you need validation, somehow? Some kind of keyboard counting coup? Given the consistency of your viewpoint, I have long since granted that you have serious concerns and are not a run of the mill case of the SJW vapors. You could grant me similar grace

[video=youtube;6BD-t2Pl2GE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BD-t2Pl2GE[/video] View attachment 74948

 

[Dead Duck]

5) I'm not saying being a Trump supporter is the root of all evils. Support who you like. Would kinda be nice if it was possible to see some flaws in your own guy and admit them. Is it possible that because of that fierce loyalty, you can't criticize him because you feel that gives aid and comfort to the enemy? Is that it? Or, is it really the BAMN principle that some of you pretty much admit to? Is there even a line he could cross?

Of course, you're right and I will man up, come clean and admit it.


I don't like this tie.
I think it totally clashes when Trump stands in front of the flag in this picture.

Oh and don't get me started on his shoes....

 

[jamil]

That’s some awesome hyperbole. Criticize every little thing? Dude, if wiped out all my posts where I said something favorable about Trump, I’d wipe out more than half my posts about Trump. But on this issue, of abusing power, ***damn straight I’ll criticize him. So. Enough about me. Can you point to any action Trump has taken that you’ve not supported? Just point me to some evidence that you’re capable of taking an objectively skeptical view. It’s like some of his followers can only offer uncritical undying support. Do you know what kind of following that is?

 

[BugI02]

Of course, you're right and I will man up, come clean and admit it.


I don't like this tie.
I think it totally clashes when Trump stands in front of the flag in this picture.

Oh and don't get me started on his shoes....

DDDrees? Is that you?

 

[fnpfan]

Dude is bad news. He’s likely done some much worse stuff than this. But if the point was illegal drugs flowing through the border, and the dude caught had swastika tats and his name was European rather than Spanish, it’s doubtful the video would be posted in this thread, even if the drugs came through the southern border. And, since the topic is the wall, as if the wall would stop them.

BTW, my point wasn’t to police thought. My point was that the premise for posting that video in this thread was a non sequitur. Mexican, gang looking dude, getting busted for drugs, justifies setting a precedent far beyond any prior use of emergency powers, does not follow. It’s a feelings-derived sentiment. Spending this much on a wall, feigning emergency to get it done, justifying it with fear is not how a good leader gets things done. And I acknowledge the extra difficulty Trump has in getting things done through a hostile press and a hostile congress. But c’mon Trump. Don’t be a ***** ass punk. The history of all Presidents’s use of emergency powers manifests the intended purpose of that power and the extraordinary way Trump is using it.

There are some things Trump has done that I applaud. But this move is an example of what is dangerous about him. It’s a ***** ass move from a narcissistic ******* who is showing the world how sometimes, he’s dumb as a bag of ****.

Do you not feel that being over run by illegals is an emergency? Most working class Americans can not afford basic health care, yet its freely handed to these invaders, is the fact that the average family of illegals is getting approximately between 300-500 dollars per month for free food while their men work under the table or under an assumed ssi# and bring in more than the average working American family after their free food..free medical care plus the males income not included.. How is this not an emergency?? Why should the hard working underappreciated American tax payer have the burden of supporting people that dont belong here while they go without themselves?? If you have good reasons why I would love to hear them..and remember nobody is against immigration. We are against illegal invaders. Just the revenue for paying their way pays for the wall in under a year.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

The whole "invaders" angle feels no different than how they label others as "nazi" and "fascist"... to justify certain responses and reactions.

Similar to labeling people as "enemies"... as though you're some sort of keyboard combatant ready to fight.

 

[fnpfan]

The whole "invaders" angle feels no different than how they label others as "nazi" and "fascist"... to justify certain responses and reactions.

Similar to labeling people as "enemies"... as though you're some sort of keyboard combatant ready to fight.

How are they not in lnvaders? Just as a fascist is a fascist..ect...if the foo sh!ts wear it ..dont try and sweatin it up..in fact i just googled websters definition of the word invader... The word trespassers is in it ..look it up...they are by definition invaders

 

[mmpsteve]

5) I'm not saying being a Trump supporter is the root of all evils. Support who you like. Would kinda be nice if it was possible to see some flaws in your own guy and admit them. Is it possible that because of that fierce loyalty, you can't criticize him because you feel that gives aid and comfort to the enemy? Is that it? Or, is it really the BAMN principle that some of you pretty much admit to? Is there even a line he could cross?

Well, I really didn't like it when he said "... grab them by the *****". Conceptually, I could wrap my head around it, but it just sounded crude. You know what I mean?

.