The Open Carry Argument

[mk2ja]

Good for you.
If you're an employee, I'll comply. and your store will get no further business from me.

I guess I'm just uncertain whether any old regular employee can "ask you to leave." I mean, yes, obviously, they can physically say the words, but I question whether a mere cashier has that authority to act on behalf of the store in such a situation, as opposed to a manager of some sort.

 

[danmrt868]

They have the right to refuse service to anyone, if they get fired for doing so by boss/owner then thats on them but they still have that right.

 

[dab77]

Great link!

I love the 5 step article. It will be manditory reading for my entire family. Now I need time to explore the link more!

 

[CPT Nervous]

Welcome.

 

[Bunnykid68]

OC is bad

 

[CPT Nervous]

OC is bad

Quit trolling, BK!

 

[mk2ja]

OC is bad

Quit trolling, BK!

-1BK

 

[BIGnTall83]

Well, Ive just spent the last 4 hrs reading through this thread(hit and miss through the middle 90 pages or so). I am a new gun owner, and no I did not choose to become a gun owner and take advantage of my 2A right because of the recent ban talk. I have been thinking about getting a firearm for quite a while but due to many things including finances and ages of the children living in my home I put it on the back burner. Anyways, in the past month or so since I purchased my first handgun and applied for my LTCH (crossing fingers to get it by June) I have been debating on whether to OC or CC, I have a Serpa holster in transit and I will have plenty of time to "practice" OC at the range untill my LTCH comes, and yes I have a clean record so the only wait is the other thousands of apps they have recieved in the past few months. I found the OP very informative as well as most of the first 35-40 pages ( the ones I read 100% of) very informative as well as entertaining as hell!

I plan to follow this thread as long as it lives, im sure it has at least another 2-3 yrs left lol. Ive had a very welcoming experiance here at INGO so far, Thanks, that is all.

 

[CPT Nervous]

Come to the dark side...



We have bacon.

 

[mk2ja]

Come to the dark side...



We have bacon.

How come my team always ends up being the dark side team!?


First an officer, now this!

 

[mercop]

As I have stated before, personally as a retired police officer, and professionaly as an instructor I do not advocate open carry. Here are my reasons-

1) Your best defense against any attention from cops, bag guys, and other citizens is being the gray man. Carrying a pistol in the open only draws attention to you. My goal is to go through life having as little interaction as possible with people unless I chose to interact with them.

2) Judging from many of the pictures I see on forums and some of the things I have seen turn up at class (my Indy crew excepted) seldom do people put enough thought into their wardrobe, belt, and holster combination. They often look like a soup sandwich....again attracting more unwanted attention.

3) Sadly, people unwilling or unable to obtain training on their own (not state sponsored BS) make up the majority of those carrying guns. If they don't have basic firearms training, there is no way that they have weapon retention training.

4) We have seen that time and time again during force on force that once the other person sees you are carrying a gun, the gun becomes the focus of the fight. IMHO a high percentage of situations that turn violent could be dealt with using open hand skills or impact weapons (decreasing your exposure to criminal and civil court). But whenever a pistol is introduced these options fade away.

Now if I lived in an areas where EVERYONE who carried a pistol did so in the open I would take part. And yes, I would like that to be the case, but it is not and I work in the world we live in.

Since retiring I have worked hard not to look like a cop, real bad guys can still pick me out and give me the head nod as I do to them. I shaved my head, grew a beard, got tattoos below the elbows. It has helped since before hand, everyone from cashiers at convenience stores to people on planes would loudly announce "are you a cop"? I so my best to avoid being the center of attention in public and advise students to do the same.- George

 

[ATM]

^
As I have countered before in this thread, I disagree with many of your conclusions on this particular matter but respect both your experience and the right to choose for yourself.

Any Indiana classes scheduled for this year?

 

[Dead Duck]

Cops are like Ostriches.

My cop friends say the same exact things about OCing - except for 2 that now are OCing themselves.
The others, like you, have their heads firmly sticking into the sand.

 

[griffin]

as a retired police officer I do not advocate open carry.

1) Your best defense against any attention from cops

Here we have yet another example of a cop telling us not to trust other cops.

 

[mercop]

How am I saying not to trust other cops? I prefer not to have interaction with any government personnel if I can avoid it. I don't like getting pulled over just as much as the next guy.

Why am I being called an Ostrich? BTW I am retired and live in PA where it is lawful to open carry as it should be, I just choose not to, and advise those I teach of the reason I have stated why I am against it. I guess having had people trying to yank my gun out of a duty holster before makes me a little cynical.

Let me give you an example of what I am talking about.

The other night at work (bouncer in club in Baltimore) we had a crazy show. At some point a bartender saw a patron go into storage closet and begin to fill his coat pockets with beer. The bartender and one time bouncer confronted him and and yelled to other staff. They recovered the beer and kicked him out. The bartender said he had a buddy with him so staff started looking.

My boss found him in front of the club and walked up and said to just give him back the beer and it would be cool. Instead the guy tried to run and my boss took him to the ground in front of the bar. By the time I came out someone had already called 911. My boss asked me to take over for him holding the guy on the ground. So I did.

Being a retired LEO I carry under HR 218 even in Maryland which is a very antigun state (I know this upsets some people and I believe everyone should be able to carry, but because that is not the case I am not going to stop carrying). As usual I had my Kel Tec P3AT in my right front cargo shorts pocket. I carry for for my protection and in the event that a violent felony is committed in my presence. I am not carrying it as an agent of the bar. OK, I have explained all of this to show how I ended up on the ground holding down a knucklehead.

The crowd was entirely MICA students Maryland Institute College of the Ats, think Occupy Wall Street and Hipsters. They poured out of the bar and became very angry at the staff, and especially me for holding down the thief for not doing anything. Staff was struggling to set up a perimeter around me and one chick came very close to kicking me in the face. Just about as the police pulled up (five cars and a wagon) I was going to let the guy up because I felt that the crowd was going to overwhelm us.

Here is my point, imagine any situation in which you end up grabbing a hold and hanging on to someone. If you believe that their is no way you would ever end up doing so then don't read any farther.

At this point you are doing something that does not involve your gun. They guy is struggling and you know that if he gets loose you don't have the time or space to use your pistol (even if it is justified) so you are doing your best to hold him. Then a buddy shows up and sees your openly carried pistol and comes towards you. What do you do? Let go of the guy you have, try to hold him one handed and let the other guy get closer, maybe going for your gun, maybe not. I would rather have my gun concealed.

Back to me in front of the bar, had I been an on duty police officer or security guard with an exposed weapon things could have gone worse.

Just like when we are on the range, when it comes to these discussions people fixate on using the gun, not the fact that you are carrying it around as you live out your life and luckily a very small percentage of situations required you to draw your gun end even less to use it.

I only want people to see my gun when I choose them to. I am 100% pro open carry as a right, just not as a tactic. YMMV- George

 

[danielson]

Cops are like Ostriches.

My cop friends say the same exact things about OCing - except for 2 that now are OCing themselves.
The others, like you, have their heads firmly sticking into the sand.

Your opinion is just as stupid to someone, as someones is to you.

 

[eldirector]

Well, since I can't say I'll ever tackle a guy over a couple of stolen beers......

We do appreciate your advice (on this and many other topics), but we seem to live in very different worlds.

Sure, if I find myself struggling on the ground with a "bad guy", then my OC firearm may somehow play differently than a CC firearm. Either way, I don't plan on initiating the confrontation (like your example).

Besides, an openly-carried handgun may very well of "diffused" the unruly crowd completely. Nothing like a big, burly well-armed guy, who very much looks like a cop, to keep the ragamuffins at bay.

 

[mercop]

We must live in different worlds. I was a ghetto cop and never saw a holstered handgun defuse a crowd. I would not count on a drawn pistol to defuse someone, much less a holstered one. When uniformed officers showed up it took them a while to clear the corner, I guess the crowd was just not afraid of guns, or more likely realized the police had no reason to use them.

I did not say that most people would be in a position to hold someone down over some beer. You may very well end up holding onto someone during a self-defense situation that did not require or allow you to draw your pistol, that is what I was trying to convey. Too many people train for positions they would like to be in, not those the are likely to end up in or dread ending up in. Think about how small our tool box would be if every nut was the same size, but they come in all sizes- George

 

[Dead Duck]

How am I saying not to trust other cops? I prefer not to have interaction with any government personnel if I can avoid it. I don't like getting pulled over just as much as the next guy.

Why am I being called an Ostrich? BTW I am retired and live in PA where it is lawful to open carry as it should be, I just choose not to, and advise those I teach of the reason I have stated why I am against it. I guess having had people trying to yank my gun out of a duty holster before makes me a little cynical.

Let me give you an example of what I am talking about.

The other night at work (bouncer in club in Baltimore) we had a crazy show. At some point a bartender saw a patron go into storage closet and begin to fill his coat pockets with beer. The bartender and one time bouncer confronted him and and yelled to other staff. They recovered the beer and kicked him out. The bartender said he had a buddy with him so staff started looking.

My boss found him in front of the club and walked up and said to just give him back the beer and it would be cool. Instead the guy tried to run and my boss took him to the ground in front of the bar. By the time I came out someone had already called 911. My boss asked me to take over for him holding the guy on the ground. So I did.

Being a retired LEO I carry under HR 218 even in Maryland which is a very antigun state (I know this upsets some people and I believe everyone should be able to carry, but because that is not the case I am not going to stop carrying). As usual I had my Kel Tec P3AT in my right front cargo shorts pocket. I carry for for my protection and in the event that a violent felony is committed in my presence. I am not carrying it as an agent of the bar. OK, I have explained all of this to show how I ended up on the ground holding down a knucklehead.

The crowd was entirely MICA students Maryland Institute College of the Ats, think Occupy Wall Street and Hipsters. They poured out of the bar and became very angry at the staff, and especially me for holding down the thief for not doing anything. Staff was struggling to set up a perimeter around me and one chick came very close to kicking me in the face. Just about as the police pulled up (five cars and a wagon) I was going to let the guy up because I felt that the crowd was going to overwhelm us.

Here is my point, imagine any situation in which you end up grabbing a hold and hanging on to someone. If you believe that their is no way you would ever end up doing so then don't read any farther.

At this point you are doing something that does not involve your gun. They guy is struggling and you know that if he gets loose you don't have the time or space to use your pistol (even if it is justified) so you are doing your best to hold him. Then a buddy shows up and sees your openly carried pistol and comes towards you. What do you do? Let go of the guy you have, try to hold him one handed and let the other guy get closer, maybe going for your gun, maybe not. I would rather have my gun concealed.

Back to me in front of the bar, had I been an on duty police officer or security guard with an exposed weapon things could have gone worse.

Just like when we are on the range, when it comes to these discussions people fixate on using the gun, not the fact that you are carrying it around as you live out your life and luckily a very small percentage of situations required you to draw your gun end even less to use it.

I only want people to see my gun when I choose them to. I am 100% pro open carry as a right, just not as a tactic. YMMV- George

I get this.

If your job puts you in a crowded place and makes your personal bubble burst, I too would not Open Carry there. While making contact in a bar fight, OCing is just like throwing your gun on the table.

But as a normal Joe, I try to stay clear from crowded drunks and scary alleys.
I am not naive to think a confrontation won't come to me even after trying to avoid it. Some wholesome common since along with a little critical thinking can go a long way.

There are Great reasons to OC and with that comes even a Greater responsibility. Just read the OP in this thread.
Not everyone chooses to do it and some shouldn't because they just aren't responsible enough to even start.

Those few irresponsible morons OCing out there are giving the majority of the responsible ones a bad rep - specifically with police officers. Because the officers have dealt with some of these guys, then all OCers are given that same suspicion.

I do know in some departments, the chiefs and/or the captains will trickle down their personal anti-OC beliefs to their departments, even though it's completely legal in their state.(because of this, there are some counties I will avoid)

Some of the cops I have conversed with on the subject in length, are so adamant with their beliefs that it ends up being a full blown argument.
Then we drink beer and deal the cards out.

You see, I was a treasurer for the department in my city for years. My best friend was a deputy sheriff and I attended all the barbecues, functions and funerals for both the police and fire departments.
BTW - One of my friends that OCs is a cop in PA and was one of the most anti-OCers I knew, but he finally saw the light.



The Ostrich is just referring to someone who is close minded.
The whole premise of this thread is to help people keep an open mind about Open Carry. Is it Not?

 

[mercop]

We had one rule and that was that if your gun was showing your badge better be too. Again, this was the people republic of Maryland.

PA is a big state and I would imagine the attitudes between small town coppers and those in the cities about open would differ.

When I was off duty or working plain clothes my gun was always concealed as it is now.- George