The Open Carry Argument

[ATM]

 

[CTS]

For me it comes down to there being zero tactical advantage to OC'ing (no difference in draw times for me) and at least a chance of one while CC'ing. That's it.

 

[actaeon277]

Fine. Carry as you feel best.
And I will, and others will.

Does that mean you are tolerant of others decision?

 

[CTS]

Fine. Carry as you feel best.
And I will, and others will.

Does that mean you are tolerant of others decision?

See...this is the kind of attitude that gets on my nerves. Did I say I had a problem with how other people carry? There are some people who open carry (some, certainly not anywhere close to all) who do it to be seen and get in arguments. Why go looking for one with me? I didn't say anything condescending of open carry or offer any criticism of it whatsoever, but for some reason it's really important for you to ferret out whether or not I'm one of those anti oc'ers.

 

[ATM]

For me it comes down to there being zero tactical advantage to OC'ing (no difference in draw times for me) and at least a chance of one while CC'ing. That's it.

Are you at least going to attempt to counter any of the debate points already presented in the original essay, later posts in this thread or make an attempt to establish a new one?

There must be something upon which you've based your assumption.

 

[actaeon277]

Attitude?
I merely asked a question.
Take it easy there.
If you have read this thread, then you know many CCers think they are right (which is fine for them), but knock other choices.
I merely asked you a question.
I did not berate your choice.
I did not jump on you post.
Take a chill pill.

 

[CTS]

For me it was watching videos of robberies where the bad guys rushed in with next to no warning, then took their eyes off of the shop owner while they were getting their goods. If they noticed the shopkeepers openly carried pistol they may have not given him the opportunity to draw when their gaze was shifted. I saw several videos where it appears it would have been advantageous to keep it concealed, and clocking my draw to fire time showed extremely little difference in draw time.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

For me it was watching videos of robberies where the bad guys rushed in with next to no warning, then took their eyes off of the shop owner while they were getting their goods. If they noticed the shopkeepers openly carried pistol they may have not given him the opportunity to draw when their gaze was shifted. I saw several videos where it appears it would have been advantageous to keep it concealed, and clocking my draw to fire time showed extremely little difference in draw time.

So you are choosing to base your method of carry on a very unlikely scenario where CC may or may not hold an advantage over OC instead of garnering the benefits of OC on a daily basis?

How many shop owners are robbed by surprise criminals ready to commit 1st degree murder? How many bystanders are there usually in robberies like that?

 

[ATM]

So... completely hypothetical and along the same general "robber bursts in to shop without warning" scenario that always gets brought up.

OK.

Have you timed your draws based upon a variety of dynamic startle responses or was it while just calmly doing it as fast as you can. Ever grab a fistful of shirt or snag a jacket?

Just curious.

 

[Roadie]

So... completely hypothetical and along the same general "robber bursts in to shop without warning" scenario that always gets brought up.

OK.

Have you timed your draws based upon a variety of dynamic startle responses or was it while just calmly doing it as fast as you can. Ever grab a fistful of shirt or snag a jacket?

Just curious.

Beat me to it...

 

[CPT Nervous]

For me it comes down to there being zero tactical advantage to OC'ing (no difference in draw times for me) and at least a chance of one while CC'ing. That's it.

Zero tactical advantage, eh?

So serving as a visible deterrent isn't an advantage? Most animals show their teeth to notify would be attackers to stay away. I can't think of why I'd want to lure someone into attacking me so I can surprise them. I'd rather they know what I'm capable of, and decide if their life is worth it.

Most robbers just want quick cash. They'll take it from a soft target. If there's the possibility of death, or murder, they'll back out.

Who would you rather rob? The guy with the Glock, or the guy who's unarmed?

For our purposes, "unarmed" means "concealed."

 

[CTS]

So you are choosing to base your method of carry on a very unlikely scenario where CC may or may not hold an advantage over OC instead of garnering the benefits of OC on a daily basis?

How many shop owners are robbed by surprise criminals ready to commit 1st degree murder? How many bystanders are there usually in robberies like that?

So there aren't ANY drawbacks to OC'ing either? Of course there are trade-offs with both, I'm going with the ones that I think are the most likely to be favorable to me based on my personal habits.

Also, no I haven't ever grabbed any shirt, but sure I suppose there's a chance. Things can go wrong with an OC draw as well, it depends on training habits. Heck I bet a lot of people who don't bother to drill very often would end up dropping their gun if they even remembered to reach for it.

 

[CTS]

So... completely hypothetical and along the same general "robber bursts in to shop without warning" scenario that always gets brought up.

How is it completely hypothetical when you can actually SEE scenarios where it might have been handy to cc?

First youtube result to "armed robbery"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yx3rvISvf3s

The robbers sweep everyone in the room then proceed to turn their backs to the store clerks...perfect opportunity to draw and fire.

I know I can find plenty more just like that, many with even better scenarios than that.

As far as the deterrent factor, based on times I've OC'd, a pretty decent number of people never even noticed I was carrying and I think the odds are high an attacker may not either until they're right on top of you (so yes that means OC'ers can get the benefit of surprise because people tend to assume everyone is unarmed).

I guess I'm just tired of seeing the OC=Good CC=Bad from some folks, they both have their own sets of advantages and disadvantages. As long as you're not one of the guys intentionally walking past an officer gun side out just to start something, I have zero issue with OC'ers.

 

[ATM]

So there aren't ANY drawbacks to OC'ing either? Of course there are trade-offs with both, I'm going with the ones that I think are the most likely to be favorable to me based on my personal habits.

Did you even read the essay in the original post?

Also, no I haven't ever grabbed any shirt, but sure I suppose there's a chance. Things can go wrong with an OC draw as well.

I just choose to minimize the layers of things that must be overcome or can go wrong unless there's some other compelling reason to add such layers.

I rarely hear of reasons given that aren't primarily hypothetical in nature.

 

[ATM]

How is it completely hypothetical when you can actually SEE scenarios where it might have been handy to cc?

Here, I'll bold it for you and make it blue. What "might have been" is the hypothetical you are attempting to use.

...I guess I'm just tired of seeing the OC=Good CC=Bad from some folks, they both have their own sets of advantages and disadvantages.

I'm just here to ask questions and have discussion, I've not implied that one was good and one was bad.

As long as you're not one of the guys intentionally walking past an officer gun side out just to start something, I have zero issue with OC'ers.

If he don't start something, there won't be nothing... I walk where I like.

 

[CTS]

I rarely hear of reasons given that aren't primarily hypothetical in nature.

I feel bad for not being able to link to it in spite of mentioning it now, but it was a real article about a real situation I read awhile back that I'll try to find when I can. There was a guy who was kidnapped and tossed in a van, I believe he was about to be beaten for appearing effeminate. He had a CC'd weapon his attackers didn't notice and he got to pick his moment to draw and open up on them. That wasn't terribly hypothetical in nature.

Frankly though it's hard to have many conversations about self-defense scenarios that aren't hypothetical in nature.

 

[CTS]

If he don't start something, there won't be nothing... I walk where I like.

That's A'OK with me, but we both know the kind of moron I'm talking about who will practically circle the guy and do fishy crap until he decides to call him on it. That's the kind of person who will make OC illegal, which I'm extremely against.

 

[ATM]

...That wasn't terribly hypothetical in nature.

I know, but statistically speaking, he probably would have been avoided had he been OCing. There are countless instances of ordinary folks attacked while CCing. Sometimes they prevail, often times not, but there are too many instances to count. Their odds of being targeted for a crime while concealing the means to defend yourself seem about the same as being unarmed.

What's interesting is how infrequently OCers are attacked.

That's not hypothetical either, it's just an interesting data point from which one may draw their own conclusions.

 

[CTS]

What's interesting is how infrequently OCers are attacked.

Hard to draw any kind of real analysis there given the relatively tiny number of people who are attacked to begin with and the even tinier subset who have a weapon period...and then the significantly smaller portion of those that OC (I don't have the numbers but given the laws in most states I'm guessing CC'ers outnumber OC'ers a hundredfold or more).

 

[slowG]

^^ agreed. A pretty rare thing.

Why doesn't everyone agree there are too many variables for one answer. It's a completely opinion based style of carry. There isn't a right or wrong answer.

Thanks to all that contributed. /thread