The Open Carry Argument

[Roadie]

CPT Nervous and Dead Duck: I got Nervous's PM and would have sent a reply back the same way but ... alas.. not enough posts

I am a Dr in Fort Wayne (and a Dr's office is a store, my customers are simply more in need than most) that carries all the time and also own a class 1 FFL. (a Dr that sells guns.. rather a conundrum ey?)

However, (and I do not expect most to understand). Some people are visibly nervous (others hide it well) when people other than LEO's are providing the visual stimulus of a firearm.

At least 50% of medicine is "mental" and I do not expect you to understand that either. But a patient that is uncomfortable for any reason is far less responsive to treatment and a nervous parent can make a child nervous. That child patients comfort is my primary concern no matter what the issue is...

I put my patients comfort and health ahead of any single persons need to open carry a firearm in a doctors office. You do not need to "get it" and frankly there is no changing any persons mind on this simple issue in some forum or even in an open and frank conversation. This is a subject much like "which is the best political party", just no end to the discussion and no one is changing sides.

You are welcome to your opinion and where you spend money, but please save the gallantry for someone that really cares more about looking like a "gun toting civil minded red blooded American" I carry concealed and will continue to do so, I ask no one to approve or disapprove of this practice nor do I flaunt it.

I have taken an oath to do no person harm and sincerely hope I never have to do so with a firearm in self defense.

I guess what I do not understand is why some people become so militant when another person exercises and equally important right that might have far more reaching consequences...

As a Doctor, I would hope that you operate more on facts, than feelings, even though you take feelings into consideration.

Do you follow a hypochondriac patient's FEELING that they have cancer and treat it with chemo, or do you follow the fact they are not physically ill and treat their mental issue?

Licensed gun owners commit less than 1% of all gun crime in the US. So far, I cannot find ONE instance where a criminal was OCing first, THEN committed a crime. So the fact is, the vast majority gun owners are overwhelmingly law abiding.

So, in essence Doc, you are treating a hypochondriac for cancer with chemo, when you should be treating their mental illness..

 

[CPT Nervous]

I missed the announcement. Congratulations, I didn't know the Grammar police were an armed division!

 

[CPT Nervous]

As a Doctor, I would hope that you operate more on facts, than feelings, even though you take feelings into consideration.

Do you follow a hypochondriac patient's FEELING that they have cancer and treat it with chemo, or do you follow the fact they are not physically ill and treat their mental issue?

Licensed gun owners commit less than 1% of all gun crime in the US. So far, I cannot find ONE instance where a criminal was OCing first, THEN committed a crime. So the fact is, the vast majority gun owners are overwhelmingly law abiding.

So, in essence Doc, you are treating a hypochondriac for cancer with chemo, when you should be treating their mental illness..

Brilliant. This draws a very real comparison. Hoplophobia is an irrational fear, so they should be going elsewhere for treatment.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Personally I am glad that a Dr is allowing at least some form of carry, and I can see some point of view in that there is a general (mis)conception that guns cause fear.

HOWEVER: The overall tone of a first post very specifically targeting OCers as a threat to his business without even understanding the most basic aspect of it shows that even in his profession there is much blind ignorance that we must combat, there is much work to be done.

His first post on the forum was to complain about private businesses (FFLs) that do not follow the letter of the law and instead restrict his [legal] ability to ship interstate to an FFL as individual.... But wait, he said he WAS an FFL! Which is it?

Anyway his take on it was that businesses did not know (ignorant) or did not care (apathy) about the law and what one could legally do because it was inconvenient for them (the business owner/FFL). How ironic IMO.

 

[Firearm Fred]

Personally I am glad that a Dr is allowing at least some form of carry, and I can see some point of view in that there is a general (mis)conception that guns cause fear.

HOWEVER: The overall tone of a first post very specifically targeting OCers as a threat to his business without even understanding the most basic aspect of it shows that even in his profession there is much blind ignorance that we must combat, there is much work to be done.

His first post on the forum was to complain about private businesses (FFLs) that do not follow the letter of the law and instead restrict his [legal] ability to ship interstate to an FFL as individual.... But wait, he said he WAS an FFL! Which is it?

Anyway his take on it was that businesses did not know (ignorant) or did not care (apathy) about the law and what one could legally do because it was inconvenient for them (the business owner/FFL). How ironic IMO.

i DO NOT nor am I required to give an FFL to send a firearm. This has little to nothing to do with the public perception of OC.. (this is about my pt, not me).

My view and outlook is just that, MINE.. I must be completely aware of how those around my practice feel (part of treating the "mind, body and soul")

what is lacking here is "apathy" for the unarmed public that may in fact feel threatened by an OC. It is apparent that at least a few here do not care or in fact like that factor about OC.

IMHO, this only aggravates a matter that could in fact lead to more misconceptions or even an aversion to OC.

Just like with many of our great rights, it also carries a great responsibility.

The freedom of speech is a great one, but is some cases over exercised, it causes great harm to others in inadvertent ways.

While you may for instance have something to say about an Islamist fundamentalist that is all "Pro Kill American", your comic depicting him and his religion can in fact lead to senseless violence against others..

When you deal with a parent that worries about their child dying from cancer, the last thing you need is one of them at the same time asking how come there is a guy in the lobby with a gun.. Life is not always about "you", there are times when perceptions must be dealt with "as they are" , not as "they should be"

If you can not understand these fundamental issues, then really all you are is gung-ho to do something just because you can..

There is a difference here between a right to bear arms and bearing arms just because you have the right..

To that end, does open carry prevent crimes? I rather doubt it..(*now if EVERYONE did?)

Why do I carry a gun? Because it is my right, it affects no one around me and I want too.

Statistics seem to indicate that CC does in fact have an effect on crime.. (who is the sheep?)

thinking I poked a stick in a bee hive here as the contingent of "fan boys" is kind of large... I am ok with that however

Peace to all...

 

[Dead Duck]

If you only treat Sheeple, doesn't that make you a Veterinarian.

 

[CPT Nervous]

My view and outlook is just that, MINE.. I must be completely aware of how those around my practice feel (part of treating the "mind, body and soul")

what is lacking here is "apathy" for the unarmed public that may in fact feel threatened by an OC. It is apparent that at least a few here do not care or in fact like that factor about OC.

IMHO, this only aggravates a matter that could in fact lead to more misconceptions or even an aversion to OC.

I do not see how me having a gun affects a child dying from cancer. The sheep's mindset is purely irrational and illogical.


I do have apathy for the unarmed public. If they require armed intervention to save them, I am there.

I don't care if they are afraid of my big, scary gun, if their life is in danger, I will defend them. Perhaps that would change their attitude.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Ah yes, "blame the provocator" rather then the one committing the atrocities. How on earth can you blame words or a comic book for mass violence? Similarly how can you blame someone minding their own business doing nothing wrong for the irrational fears/concerns of others?

Have you personally witnessed mass hysteria caused by an OCer in a public setting? I know I haven't and I've been doing it for almost four years in all types of settings. Ironically enough accidentally in a hospital as well. The only over reacting done was by security.

And lastly, you came onto our thread calling US out about a lifestyle we choose. It isn't about fanboyism, it that it appeared to us that you came looking for a good argument and we aim to please. There is no hostility here despite your apparent best intentions.

 

[GBuck]

Doesn't seem that the good doctor is wanting to blame the OCer, rather he doesn't want to deal with it period. In many businesses people can see a gun and choose to leave or not say anything and still feel uncomfortable and not say anything. If they do this in his office it can lea to some serious side effects. I'm not saying its right for them to act like that, but to ridicule the doctor for being perceptive to his patients is crap. He runs a business and makes decisions based on real life, not what some bullies on the Internet "believe".

 

[N8RV]

Oh, I'll be the nonconformist here and side somewhat with Dr. Fred. Somebody has to.

As a dentist, my office is probably not unlike Fred's. Admittedly, he treats patients in far more serious conditions than I on most days, but it's still a medical facility and, as such, has certain expectations by the public for safety, cleanliness, professionalism, etc.

I'm guessing that a non-gun person -- and we have an abundance of them in our society today, due to the declining need or desire for families to own firearms for hunting or protection -- would be alarmed to see employees in a gun shop OC. In a GUN STORE. That's just their visceral reaction these days, due to their indoctrination. That same shock, and sometimes outrage, would likely be amplified in a grocery store. Or a college campus or theater, thanks to recent events. That's just the reality of the times in which we live.

A medical facility is likely the last place where the non-gun toting public expects to see people wearing sidearms. To us, it's no different than anywhere else, but to them, it IS different. It doesn't change our statutory right to OC in Indiana, but recognizing the difference in environments and the public's response to those different venues is key to deciding which value is more important -- OUR right to OC or THEIR right to be uninformed and afraid.

Dr. Fred has decided that his patients' possible reactions to OC in his office trumps the right of others to OC. That is as much his right to establish that restriction as is the right of those offended to seek medical care elsewhere. It's no different than any other business -- you don't like their policies regarding OC, shop elsewhere. Dr. Fred can't treat everybody, and being asked to conceal or to go elsewhere (I'd have suggested that he not use the term "eject") really shouldn't ruffle anyone's feathers. As has been posted elsewhere, just the fact that he carries should be an encouragement to us all. If I carried at work, my scrub pants would likely fall down!

Sorry for being a bit verbose in this post, but since I'm having to counter a dozen or more detractors, I figured that I had to write more.

Dr. Fred, you keep carrying and healing the sick. That's what you do, and God bless you. As for my office, I have no such restriction on OC, but it's never been a problem. I once had a patient who CCs lean forward and unwittingly reveal his butt crack holster -- I thought my assistant would come unglued! The hens in my office cackled about him being too crazy to carry a gun, and that kept them busy for a good couple of hours.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

As a business owner.. I will immediately eject any person "open carrying"..

If you carry concealed? welcome welcome welcome....

I do not want my income affected by the non-shooter being uptight about someone with a gun in the store..

While I support the right to do as you please with open carry, you must also support my right to not have exposed firearms in my place of business..

While I am not bothered by it what so ever, my customers might be and that is enough to keep open carry guns out of my store..

Doesn't seem that the good doctor is wanting to blame the OCer, rather he doesn't want to deal with it period. In many businesses people can see a gun and choose to leave or not say anything and still feel uncomfortable and not say anything. If they do this in his office it can lea to some serious side effects. I'm not saying its right for them to act like that, but to ridicule the doctor for being perceptive to his patients is crap. He runs a business and makes decisions based on real life, not what some bullies on the Internet "believe".

Incorrect, he doesn't want to hurt his bottom line with what he believes to be the truth. He is willing to make decisions and exclude people because of a choice they make absed on nothing more than conjecture.

His original premise is about the almighty dollar, that has not changed he just made a different argument to not look so bad after he saw his position was not very popular.

The very last statement is very ironic and obviously a ploy to incite further arguments and name calling. I believe just the opposite, he is basing an unwritten policy on what HE "believes" where I can show from years of experience it just doesn't happen.

I wonder how far he would go to sheild his patients from any type of fear triggers. I mean, many law abiding people are very afraid of uniformed police officer. Would he ask a cop to leave if he was in uniform and carrying his sidearm?

There is common prejudice against the average non uniformed citizen carrying a weapon in the open where somehow the method of carry is deemed to be the antagonist rather than any real factors.

If anything the opposite is true: Police officers are largely untrained, irresponsible, and ignorant of current laws. The officers like Frank-n-stein, Phylodog, Kutnupe, rw49, and others I am regretfully forgetting are too few and far between compared to the masses.

 

[GBuck]

The very last statement is very ironic and obviously a ploy to incite further arguments and name calling. I believe just the opposite, he is basing an unwritten policy on what HE "believes" where I can show from years of experience it just doesn't happen.

It just doesn't happen? Really? Coming from you, that may be THE MOST IRONIC POST EVER ON INGO.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

It just doesn't happen? Really? Coming from you, that may be THE MOST IRONIC POST EVER ON INGO.

If only if you were in my shoes. The ruckus has always been caused by cops or security guards, never the general public.

 

[GBuck]

If only if you were in my shoes. The ruckus has always been caused by cops or security guards, never the general public.

You and I both know, even without your situation, there have been literally thousands of posts on this thread where people have been harassed by LEOs or store management because someone has complained about a visible gun.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

You and I both know, even without your situation, there have been literally thousands of posts on this thread where people have been harassed by LEOs or store management because someone has complained about a visible gun.

Exactly. People in posistions of authority that assume there is a problem or mistakenly enforcing a law that does not exist. The general public even if they do not like guns hardly pay an OCer any attention whatsoever.

It drives me crazy when so many people that DO NOT OC tell us that do how people react to us. How the hell would they even know?

 

[GBuck]

Exactly. People in posistions of authority that assume there is a problem or mistakenly enforcing a law that does not exist. The general public even if they do not like guns hardly pay an OCer any attention whatsoever.

It drives me crazy when so many people that DO NOT OC tell us that do how people react to us. How the hell would they even know?

Simple answer? Because the OCers post it on here all the time.

Long answer? I OC about 20% of the time, but I'm a wuss and do it only places that I know are OC friendly, so I'm not going to take an hour searching all the "I was at taco bell and the cops showed up and harassed me bc some lady eating dinner with her family thought I was going to go crazy and shoot up the building," threads.

ETA: Dr. Fred never said anything about enforcing an inaccurate law, he said he doesn't allow it. That is within the law, it's his company. The argument is do sheeple get scared by guns, and the answer is an overwhelming yes. Just because they're crazy for being terrorized by guns does not mean it doesn't happen. And just because the security or LEO say something to the OCer does not mean that they're "enforcing a law that does not exist." If they're not receiving a complaint at Taco Bell, how did the popo know to show up? Magic?

 

[Firearm Fred]

I would thank GBuck for his insight and seeing what I actually posted but I am sure it would draw friendly fire..

And Frosty, I do protect my income.. I had to pay off $500k in student loans to schools that are largely occupied by the very people you dislike. (take a gun to school some day)

While others were off playing house, going out with friends, going on vacations, buying things they really just really wanted, driving new cars... I was eating top ramen, shopping second hand stores for clothes, budgeting a monthly movie and generally living on the edge of broke. (while acquiring a breathtaking debt)

So when I was thirty something, smart enough to stand on my own and looking at my first practice, I got very protective of my income... I still work 60 hour weeks, live in a nice home, have nice cars and a nice gun collection.. I broker guns as a hobby to something I love doing, shooting.

I have voted every year since I turned 18, donate thousands to less fortunate and in some cases given my last free hour to someone in need.

When I listen to someone tell me how others should behave or react to their actions (say OC) it cracks me up. By their very reaction and statements, they are emulating the very people they are fighting against. So who do I let dictate my actions? you or them? Either way I fear it is some form of socialism.. One guy making rules that "he" feels are appropriate..

 

[Titanium_Frost]

I would thank GBuck for his insight and seeing what I actually posted but I am sure it would draw friendly fire..

And Frosty, I do protect my income.. I had to pay off $500k in student loans to schools that are largely occupied by the very people you dislike. (take a gun to school some day)

While others were off playing house, going out with friends, going on vacations, buying things they really just really wanted, driving new cars... I was eating top ramen, shopping second hand stores for clothes, budgeting a monthly movie and generally living on the edge of broke. (while acquiring a breathtaking debt)

So when I was thirty something, smart enough to stand on my own and looking at my first practice, I got very protective of my income... I still work 60 hour weeks, live in a nice home, have nice cars and a nice gun collection.. I broker guns as a hobby to something I love doing, shooting.

I have voted every year since I turned 18, donate thousands to less fortunate and in some cases given my last free hour to someone in need.

When I listen to someone tell me how others should behave or react to their actions (say OC) it cracks me up. By their very reaction and statements, they are emulating the very people they are fighting against. So who do I let dictate my actions? you or them? Either way I fear it is some form of socialism.. One guy making rules that "he" feels are appropriate..

Somehow I feel like we are not on the same page here, or at the very least not arguing the same point.

I'm sure you are a nice guy, so am I and so are 99% of the guys on this forum and others. You won't find more guys willing to go above and beyond to help their fellow man that the strangers on here.

That is all beside the point. None of this is a personal attack, this is a debate thread on a discussion forum. We would be as bored as watching paint dry if we didn't argue about SOMETHING.

My issue was with your wording about how you would immediately eject an OCer but welcome a CCer. I have been working very hard to combat the misconceptions of OCing and reading something like that is more than a kick in the gut, those are fighting words in this thread!

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Simple answer? Because the OCers post it on here all the time.

Long answer? I OC about 20% of the time, but I'm a wuss and do it only places that I know are OC friendly, so I'm not going to take an hour searching all the "I was at taco bell and the cops showed up and harassed me bc some lady eating dinner with her family thought I was going to go crazy and shoot up the building," threads.

ETA: Dr. Fred never said anything about enforcing an inaccurate law, he said he doesn't allow it. That is within the law, it's his company. The argument is do sheeple get scared by guns, and the answer is an overwhelming yes. Just because they're crazy for being terrorized by guns does not mean it doesn't happen. And just because the security or LEO say something to the OCer does not mean that they're "enforcing a law that does not exist." If they're not receiving a complaint at Taco Bell, how did the popo know to show up? Magic?

The bolded portion is an incorrect statement. Just who are you calling sheep? The portion of the populace that does not carry or the .001% that are true hoplophobes?

And a cop showing up, regardless of the complaint, and orders you to conceal IS enforcing a law that does not exist specifically contrary to Preemption.

 

[GBuck]

The bolded portion is an incorrect statement. Just who are you calling sheep? The portion of the populace that does not carry or the .001% that are true hoplophobes?

And a cop showing up, regardless of the complaint, and orders you to conceal IS enforcing a law that does not exist specifically contrary to Preemption.

No one said that the cop was forcing you to conceal. You're making that part up to help your arguement. I'm just saying they show up. That is all.

As to the first part, I would call those that don't carry, train or make the safety of themselves and their property a personal responsibility.