The Open Carry Argument

[melensdad]

My issue was with your wording about how you would immediately eject an OCer but welcome a CCer.

BINGO

I believe I took his wording the same way you took it. Like a kick to the gut.

Seriously, if someone politely asks me to cover a gun, or explains they are gun friendly but their policy is that it be CC'd only, then I'm probably going to have no issues complying. But to promptly eject me for simple OC, that seems a bit over the top.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

No one said that the cop was forcing you to conceal. You're making that part up to help your arguement. I'm just saying they show up. That is all.

WHAT??? It has happened to me directly! Are you in a bubble? I was using it as an example, much like yourself. Perhaps you need to re-read it.

As to the first part, I would call those that don't carry, train or make the safety of themselves and their property a personal responsibility

So by that statement you think that a vast majority- at least 80-90% of the state is sheep and therefore frightened at the mere sight of a gun?

Ludicrous.

 

[GBuck]

WHAT??? It has happened to me directly! Are you in a bubble? I was using it as an example, much like yourself. Perhaps you need to re-read it.

I'm saying in the "hypothetical" that we're discussing, not in any one or all situations. Surely you realize this.

So by that statement you think that a vast majority- at least 80-90% of the state is sheep and therefore frightened at the mere sight of a gun?

80-90% Sheep? Yeah, sounds like a pretty reasonable number. I am not, however saying that ALL sheep are afraid of guns or don't like being around them. I do think that you'd be surprised at the number of people that are, though.


(I like that you're taking this as if I'm in any way telling you what you should or should not do.)

 

[Titanium_Frost]

As far as the hypothetical goes, I think we are trying to prove different points with what we are saying. You made the comment about cops not necessarily enforcing a nonexisting law and I showed a real world example of it happening. I consider that argument closed now.

Sheep: Ok, I'm not saying you are incorrect with 80-90% sheep, but according to an earlier post in your mind [Sheep = Scared of guns] and therefore they will have a problem with OC. I do not find this to be the case and all the evidence I can find backs up that assumption, taken as a whole considering that I OC a lot of places and I just don't take the time to tell about every boring detail or every positive comment or thumbs up I get when I'm going about my business.

Drama = ratings, when there is a good story to dish about it garners attention and it therefore over represents in places like this where a larger percentage of the population here on INGO OCies compared to the over all population of Indiana.

Even among other gun forums we have a very high percentage of carriers. Just go to Rimfire Central and talk about carrying a gun. I used to hang out there before Jetgirl on there and some local guys at IDPA told me about INGO.

 

[jeremy]

I have been OC'ing a pistol for over 20 years, minus my trips away from Our Uncle, and have yet to be approached by LEOs, or have a Citizen faint from seeing it.

 

[the1kidd03]

As a business owner.. I will immediately eject any person "open carrying"..

If you carry concealed? welcome welcome welcome....

I do not want my income affected by the non-shooter being uptight about someone with a gun in the store..

While I support the right to do as you please with open carry, you must also support my right to not have exposed firearms in my place of business..

While I am not bothered by it what so ever, my customers might be and that is enough to keep open carry guns out of my store..

That is also enough to keep their, and a lot of other concealed carriers from bringing their money to your store. Such as myself....

 

[GBuck]

I have been OC'ing a pistol for over 20 years, minus my trips away from Our Uncle, and have yet to be approached by LEOs, or have a Citizen faint from seeing it.

You're more versed in hyperbole than most give you credit for.

 

[the1kidd03]

The point here is FREEDOM. I have the freedom to carry however I see fit, and will exercise that. I will do so no matter what pathetic means of "reasoning" you wish to apply for my chosen method.

Others may and very well do have the right to not be "scared" of my big evil gun, so they are free to walk away from me and go elsewhere. Implying that ONE person's freedom trumps or in anyway supersedes another's is ludicrous and largely the reason for the erosion of many of our rights today.

Fear my gun. That is your choice. Just as it is to walk away from me. I do not have to alter my lifestyle or choices to appease someone else's fears, emotional issues, or difference of opinion anymore than they do.

Hence, I'll carry how I wish. Like it, or not. If not, it's not my problem. If it bothers you so much you can't be around it, then leave. Nobody is forcing you to be around it. Forcing me to leave to appease you is no more "proper" than it would be to force you to leave in order to appease me. So, SITFU and enjoy your day, IMO. Quit trying to force YOUR choices onto me in some form or another. We are eroding our own freedoms with this sort of thinking. Learn ACCEPTANCE of freedom, NOT perpetuation of its erosion.

I don't own my own small business, but have helped start/organize them. If it were mine, it would be something to this effect: "Mr. Manager, that man over there has a gun. Can you ask him to leave? It makes me uncomfortable." "Mam, I appreciate your concern. That man has posed no threat here or acted in any way out of the ordinary to indicate any form of criminal intent. Seeing as he is openly carrying and interacting with his friends civilly, I'm willing to bet that he is licensed to carry in this state. Therefore I will not ask him to leave. If you are still uncomfortable then you are also welcome to return at a later time. EVERY law abiding customer is EQUALLY welcome here."

 

[jeremy]

You're more versed in hyperbole than most give you credit for.

Uhhhhhhhh....

Thanks....

I think....

 

[actaeon277]

Firearm Fred. I support your right to choose for your business. And I can even understand the reason, even as I disagree with it.
But, don't think you're being attacked. You did post in a thread titled "The Open Carry Arguement".

And I kinda think it would be like worrying an old lady being nervous because there was an Asian teenager with a tattoo in your waiting room. Maybe she's afraid of Asian teenagers with tattoos. Do you tell him to cover his tattoo or leave?

 

[Firearm Fred]

The point here is FREEDOM. I have the freedom to carry however I see fit, and will exercise that. I will do so no matter what pathetic means of "reasoning" you wish to apply for my chosen method.

This really had nothing to do with the law or your rights, it had a far deeper meaning that what lay on top of the issue. But since you insist...

You do not have the right to carry however you see fit UNLESS you are licensed (found to be free from mental defect, not using drugs, no criminal background etc) and then it is considered a "privilege" not a right. (concealed carry is very typically how many see fit to carry a loaded firearm). If you are only referring to "OC" then read on..
You are further banned from a number of places regardless of your legal ability to carry a loaded gun.

Indiana's concealed permit is rather a joke, you need not attend any classes, be informed of the laws to shooting a person, or worse yet, show you can even use the thing. Just get some fingerprints, pay some fees and away you go. That just gives me a warm fuzzy feeling all over..

With that in mind, if you were denied a permit to carry concealed, odds are good you are not legally allowed to own a gun in the first place.

Finally, to add insult to injury I am pretty sure most states require that the OC firearm be unloaded? (sort of like showing up to a gunfight without a knife even?)

I happen to spend a lot of time around LEO's and the very very few (2 I know of) that have had to use a firearm never had time to load the thing. They were lucky to get it un-holstered and fired under extreme duress.

Odds on that if you are under that stress, you are not going to be much better than they are. But I hope you do because it could mean your life..

Given various targets a nutcase might be going for, I think the guy trying to load his gun might be high on the list..

 

[lonehoosier]

This really had nothing to do with the law or your rights, it had a far deeper meaning that what lay on top of the issue. But since you insist...

You do not have the right to carry however you see fit UNLESS you are licensed (found to be free from mental defect, not using drugs, no criminal background etc) and then it is considered a "privilege" not a right. (concealed carry is very typically how many see fit to carry a loaded firearm). If you are only referring to "OC" then read on..
You are further banned from a number of places regardless of your legal ability to carry a loaded gun.

Indiana's concealed permit is rather a joke, you need not attend any classes, be informed of the laws to shooting a person, or worse yet, show you can even use the thing. Just get some fingerprints, pay some fees and away you go. That just gives me a warm fuzzy feeling all over..

With that in mind, if you were denied a permit to carry concealed, odds are good you are not legally allowed to own a gun in the first place.

Finally, to add insult to injury I am pretty sure most states require that the OC firearm be unloaded? (sort of like showing up to a gunfight without a knife even?)

I happen to spend a lot of time around LEO's and the very very few (2 I know of) that have had to use a firearm never had time to load the thing. They were lucky to get it un-holstered and fired under extreme duress.

Odds on that if you are under that stress, you are not going to be much better than they are. But I hope you do because it could mean your life..

Given various targets a nutcase might be going for, I think the guy trying to load his gun might be high on the list..

There is a lot of fail in this post.

 

[melensdad]

You do not have the right to carry however you see fit UNLESS you are licensed (found to be free from mental defect, not using drugs, no criminal background etc) and then it is considered a "privilege" not a right.

Actually under Indiana laws it is a RIGHT. We are not a "may" issue state, we are a "shall" issue state.

Indiana's concealed permit is rather a joke, you need not attend any classes, be informed of the laws to shooting a person, or worse yet, show you can even use the thing. Just get some fingerprints, pay some fees and away you go.

We don't have a 'concealed carry permit' but rather we have a license to carry. It does not specify how we can/may/should carry. Nor does it place limits on such. As for your opinions on our needs to qualify, seems like we are in pretty good company, as states are adopting carry rights, more are recognizing the 'rights' aspect and fewer are requiring qualifiers.

With that in mind, if you were denied a permit to carry concealed, odds are good you are not legally allowed to own a gun in the first place.

You pretty much got this part correct. You must be a proper person to buy a gun. That is essentially the same standard to carry one.

Finally, to add insult to injury I am pretty sure most states require that the OC firearm be unloaded? (sort of like showing up to a gunfight without a knife even?)

I'm very sure you are totally wrong on this point.

Odds on that if you are under that stress, you are not going to be much better than they are. But I hope you do because it could mean your life..

Being a doctor you should be acquainted using FACTS instead of opinions. That said, civilians seems to do pretty well with their weapons. So please provide your evidence that most do not.

 

[Roadie]

This really had nothing to do with the law or your rights, it had a far deeper meaning that what lay on top of the issue. But since you insist...

You do not have the right to carry however you see fit UNLESS you are licensed (found to be free from mental defect, not using drugs, no criminal background etc) and then it is considered a "privilege" not a right. (concealed carry is very typically how many see fit to carry a loaded firearm). If you are only referring to "OC" then read on..
You are further banned from a number of places regardless of your legal ability to carry a loaded gun.

Indiana's concealed permit is rather a joke, you need not attend any classes, be informed of the laws to shooting a person, or worse yet, show you can even use the thing. Just get some fingerprints, pay some fees and away you go. That just gives me a warm fuzzy feeling all over..

With that in mind, if you were denied a permit to carry concealed, odds are good you are not legally allowed to own a gun in the first place.

Finally, to add insult to injury I am pretty sure most states require that the OC firearm be unloaded? (sort of like showing up to a gunfight without a knife even?)

I happen to spend a lot of time around LEO's and the very very few (2 I know of) that have had to use a firearm never had time to load the thing. They were lucky to get it un-holstered and fired under extreme duress.

Odds on that if you are under that stress, you are not going to be much better than they are. But I hope you do because it could mean your life..

Given various targets a nutcase might be going for, I think the guy trying to load his gun might be high on the list..

The 2nd Amendment, and Article 1 Section 32 of the State Constitution, both articulate a natural RIGHT to bear arms. They do not give that right, they just enumerate it.. as for training, that may be an argument for another time/thread. Many here believe that all States should be like Vermont and require NO License to carry. aka Constitutional Carry. (btw, Vermont has one of the lowest gun crime rates, per capita, than any other State).

Most states require OC to be unloaded?? Where do you get this stuff? The ONLY State that did that was California. Many states even allow OC without a License, but require one to CC.. some, as I alluded to above, do not require a License at all..

Many of us DO train. Many of us have had more training than many LEOs. MOST of us fire more rounds annually than LEOs are required to for training..

Also.. Which places are we "banned" from? There are very very few places in Indiana that it is illegal to carry into..


Again, as I posted before, and you so deftly ignored..

As a Doctor, I would hope that you operate more on facts, than feelings, even though you take feelings into consideration.

Do you follow a hypochondriac patient's FEELING that they have cancer and treat it with chemo, or do you follow the fact they are not physically ill and treat their mental issue?

Licensed gun owners commit less than 1% of all gun crime in the US. So far, I cannot find ONE instance where a criminal was OCing first, THEN committed a crime. So the fact is, the vast majority gun owners are overwhelmingly law abiding.

So, in essence Doc, you are treating a hypochondriac for cancer with chemo, when you should be treating their mental illness..

The problem here Doc, is that you bemoan the lack of training required to carry a gun, yet you yourself are so woefully uninformed/misinformed, that it is you yourself that needs that training/education more than most of us here on INGO..

 

[actaeon277]

Firearm Fred, I was mostly with you till your last post.
Most of the points have been already discussed.

 

[GBuck]

Yeah, Fred, you lost me with your last post. You're very wrong in most cases.

I will agree with you on the fact that Indiana uses the term "right" loosely when it comes to firearms. If we had a "right" we would not need to apply for a permission slip. That however, is another thread entirely.

 

[CPT Nervous]

This really had nothing to do with the law or your rights, it had a far deeper meaning that what lay on top of the issue. But since you insist...

You do not have the right to carry however you see fit UNLESS you are licensed (found to be free from mental defect, not using drugs, no criminal background etc) and then it is considered a "privilege" not a right. (concealed carry is very typically how many see fit to carry a loaded firearm). If you are only referring to "OC" then read on..
You are further banned from a number of places regardless of your legal ability to carry a loaded gun.

Indiana's concealed permit is rather a joke, you need not attend any classes, be informed of the laws to shooting a person, or worse yet, show you can even use the thing. Just get some fingerprints, pay some fees and away you go. That just gives me a warm fuzzy feeling all over..

With that in mind, if you were denied a permit to carry concealed, odds are good you are not legally allowed to own a gun in the first place.

Finally, to add insult to injury I am pretty sure most states require that the OC firearm be unloaded? (sort of like showing up to a gunfight without a knife even?)

I happen to spend a lot of time around LEO's and the very very few (2 I know of) that have had to use a firearm never had time to load the thing. They were lucky to get it un-holstered and fired under extreme duress.

Odds on that if you are under that stress, you are not going to be much better than they are. But I hope you do because it could mean your life..

Given various targets a nutcase might be going for, I think the guy trying to load his gun might be high on the list..

What, did you just make this stuff up as you went?

Where did the most states require OC to be unloaded come from? Seriously, you're making this up, aren't you?

The little respect I had, which was from your semi intelligent arguments, has been lost forever with this post.

Oh, and that thing where you put a smilie at the end of an obnoxious, offensive, poorly written post doesn't make it better. It's still obnoxious, offensive, and poorly written.

I find your tone very insulting.

 

[thompal]

Firearm Fred. I support your right to choose for your business. And I can even understand the reason, even as I disagree with it.
But, don't think you're being attacked. You did post in a thread titled "The Open Carry Arguement".

And I kinda think it would be like worrying an old lady being nervous because there was an Asian teenager with a tattoo in your waiting room. Maybe she's afraid of Asian teenagers with tattoos. Do you tell him to cover his tattoo or leave?

If you follow F Fred's logic, he wouldn't be ASKED to cover it or leave, he would be forcibly ejected, since someone MAY be offended. No choices offered, no warnings, etc.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

I think Fred is finally showing his true colors. Ignorant of the law, ignorant of our practices, and ignorant of reality.

He thinks he is in his LGS where he can make stuff up and we all agree. There is no more point to this argument.

 

[jeremy]

Remind me again why Neg Rep was removed as an option....