The Open Carry Argument

[88GT]

Welcome to INGO.

I'll just address the part you've got backwards there. In Indiana, carrying a rifle is exercising your right while carrying a pistol on your hip (openly or concealed) without purchasing a permission slip is prohibited.

Carrying rifles doesn't make us look bad, worrying more about what the pacifists think does.

I'm so glad you're here to address this kind of silliness.

Saves me the trouble.

 

[Redhorse]

Welcome to INGO.

I'll just address the part you've got backwards there. In Indiana, carrying a rifle is exercising your right while carrying a pistol on your hip (openly or concealed) without purchasing a permission slip is prohibited.

Carrying rifles doesn't make us look bad, worrying more about what the pacifists think does.

Unfortunately, what the pacifists think and how they sway those who are on the fence and/or are indifferent about gun fights vs. gun control makes a difference when it shouldn't. I look forward to the day college students can carry on campus here without the fear of being expelled. And yes, I know it's completely legal, but the threat of expulsion is pretty serious to a young adult. But without further adieu...

 

[ATM]

Unfortunately, what the pacifists think and how they sway those who are on the fence and/or are indifferent about gun fights vs. gun control makes a difference when it shouldn't. I look forward to the day college students can carry on campus here without the fear of being expelled. And yes, I know it's completely legal, but the threat of expulsion is pretty serious to a young adult. But without further adieu...

The folks leading the efforts to push restrictions aren't pacifists, as they're not really anti-violence, they are more specifically anti-liberty.

If students continue to attend and pay for colleges with anti-carry policies, waiving their right to be armed or secretly risking expulsion to carry, I don't see much competition springing up to fill any void.

 

[Redhorse]

The folks leading the efforts to push restrictions aren't pacifists, as they're not really anti-violence, they are more specifically anti-liberty.

If students continue to attend and pay for colleges with anti-carry policies, waiving their right to be armed or secretly risking expulsion to carry, I don't see much competition springing up to fill any void.

I should have put "pacifists" in quotations to symbolize their anti-liberty views because I agree with you and thought that "pacifists" was understood as such.

I agree ATM, but I can't afford to move to Utah or Idaho and I can't afford to not have a future because I refuse to go to college in order to obtain a degree to make myself marketable for the ever increasing competitive job market. However, Students for Concealed Carry are a small and active group pushing for the right to carry on campus and Rep. Jim Lucas is fighting for us by introducing legislation for campus carry each spring. There are those out there trying, it's just a complicated process. I ask you to have faith in us for our cause, we face an uphill battle. There is competition to fill this void, simply no one takes us seriously because everyone assumes college kids don't care about our liberties, or at least, thats the way it sometimes seems to me.

 

[cbhausen]

The real problem is hordes of little rugrats indoctrinated by our public schools to think guns are bad as reinforced by incredibly ridiculous zero-tolerance policies. We can fight this on several fronts:

1. Raise your kids to respect and cherish liberty, including the Second Amendment, and teach them firearm safety. Get them to a LibertySeed.
2. If you don't have kids, teach someone else's! Introduction to firearms, range time, Appleseeds, etc.
3. Don't forget adults! My wife is over 40 and has never fired a shot. I'm working on her but man, it's gotta be her decision! You know how that goes. One of her GF shoots, I'm angling for that route.
4. VOTE, DAMNIT! YOUR VOTE COUNTS. EVERY VOTE COUNTS.

Hell, this stuff could be a sticky all unto itself. I'm preachin' to the choir here.

 

[danielson]

You can teach your children how to be a perfect person, but the number of parents who dont, are outnumbering you, progressively every year. Every time one of those kids gets pissed and shoots up the school, politicians come out of the woodwork to make their careers, and the gun is their enemy, and their platform for "making it" in the liberal politics world...

 

[88GT]

You can teach your children how to be a perfect person, but the number of parents who dont, are outnumbering you, progressively every year. Every time one of those kids gets pissed and shoots up the school, politicians come out of the woodwork to make their careers, and the gun is their enemy, and their platform for "making it" in the liberal politics world...

That's because the vast majority of people in this country are the product of the government schools.

 

[Redhorse]

That's because the vast majority of people in this country are the product of the government schools.

This takes the cake.

 

[cbhausen]

While discussing OC/CC with a Clermont PD LEO in C&C Midwest Firearms at lunchtime today, the LEO told me I would be the first one shot, how if he was the BG he would shoot me then take my wallet. And then told me he CCs when off duty because he wants the element of surprise.

Then I got reprimanded by the shop owner (I think he was anyway) for touching my holstered firearm (after announcing to the LEO I was not unholstering it). Yes, I should not have touched it and no, I didn't get thrown out.

BTW that shop has GREAT prices. Their transfer fee is pretty high at $35 though.

 

[SteveM4A1]

That element of surprise is important

 

[Bluejeeper]

Why deter when you can use your tactical element of surprise to save the day and be a big hero?

cb- Did you ask him for any proof of the "OCer always getting shot first" bs?

 

[cbhausen]

Why deter when you can use your tactical element of surprise to save the day and be a big hero?

cb- Did you ask him for any proof of the "OCer always getting shot first" bs?

I asked him if he'd actually seen or heard of that and he said "yes". But I really didn't want to argue with an LEO as a first-time visitor in a new gun shop. The LEO said "If I was a bad guy and made my mind up to rob you if I saw your gun I'd shoot you, then take your wallet and gun". I replied "CCers lose their weapons too when the BG gets the drop on them". I was about to bring up some of the points in the OP but really wasn't worth it. Nothing was going to change his mind.

I guess the BG never changes his mind after making the decision to rob his victim? So I guess the OC weapon is never a deterrent? I was pretty shocked by the cliches he was repeating.

Oh, and I was CC today. It's cold outside. I got reprimanded when clearing my coat to show him my Sig (after saying I was going to do it assuring him it was not leaving the holster). The thing seems to want to rotate out of proper cant angle and I adjusted it. I also have the bad habit of "testing" the retention by lifting it ever so slightly to hear that reassuring "click" my Safariland holster makes. DON'T DO THAT IN A GUNSHOP WITH A COP THERE, DUMBASS!

 

[Bluejeeper]

Yea probably better not to get into a debate that would turn into an arguement with a cop in a new gun store if you wanna go back!

And hey, at least he wasn't saying "civilians" shouldn't carry guns. Thats a

 

[XtremeRevolution]

It amazes me how many people make up situations in their heads as for why someone should carry a certain way. "The element of surprise" is nothing more than a fantasy crocked up in someone's imagination of a best case scenario that will never happen. You will not have a bad guy come into a restaurant while you are sitting down and give you just the right amount of time to catch him off guard while he is "holding up" the whole store. The chances that you will be a victim in one of the aforementioned fringe zones (come on people, you did read through that article and all the links like I spent 3 hours doing today, right?) are so much higher than the fantasy scenario that it's not even worth mentioning.

People only see this crap on the news or in movies and think it's real life. Sorry to bust anyone's bubble here but in real life, truly insane people that kill for the sake of killing are vastly less likely to appear in your surroundings than someone who is looking to mug you, and that someone who wants to mug you wants to do just that; not kill you for the sake of killing. He wants to take what you have, run, and never be seen again, and if you pose a threat to his life, he will move on.

As the article so eloquently pointed out, the "element of surprise" is an offensive, not defensive tactic. It's nothing more than a feel-good buzz word to justify one's unwavering opinion.

Why does nobody invade the USA? Because there are 3x more guns than there are people. Because we have the most powerful military in the world, and it's no secret.

My wife will open carry to make it painfully clear she is not an easy target.

 

[SteveM4A1]

It amazes me how many people make up situations in their heads as for why someone should carry a certain way. "The element of surprise" is nothing more than a fantasy crocked up in someone's imagination of a best case scenario that will never happen. You will not have a bad guy come into a restaurant while you are sitting down and give you just the right amount of time to catch him off guard while he is "holding up" the whole store. The chances that you will be a victim in one of the aforementioned fringe zones (come on people, you did read through that article and all the links like I spent 3 hours doing today, right?) are so much higher than the fantasy scenario that it's not even worth mentioning.

People only see this crap on the news or in movies and think it's real life. Sorry to bust anyone's bubble here but in real life, truly insane people that kill for the sake of killing are vastly less likely to appear in your surroundings than someone who is looking to mug you, and that someone who wants to mug you wants to do just that; not kill you for the sake of killing. He wants to take what you have, run, and never be seen again, and if you pose a threat to his life, he will move on.

As the article so eloquently pointed out, the "element of surprise" is an offensive, not defensive tactic. It's nothing more than a feel-good buzz word to justify one's unwavering opinion.

Why does nobody invade the USA? Because there are 3x more guns than there are people. Because we have the most powerful military in the world, and it's no secret.

My wife will open carry to make it painfully clear she is not an easy target.

Welcome to INGO! You are a sight for sore eyes.

 

[Bobby]

While discussing OC/CC with a Clermont PD LEO in C&C Midwest Firearms at lunchtime today, the LEO told me I would be the first one shot, how if he was the BG he would shoot me then take my wallet. And then told me he CCs when off duty because he wants the element of surprise.

Then I got reprimanded by the shop owner (I think he was anyway) for touching my holstered firearm (after announcing to the LEO I was not unholstering it). Yes, I should not have touched it and no, I didn't get thrown out.

BTW that shop has GREAT prices. Their transfer fee is pretty high at $35 though.

He is a police officer. If he ever has to use his gun in a justified shooting when he is off duty, he has the full weight and protection of the police department behind him. So, it makes sense for him to want the "element of surprise." I, as a civilian, have no such luxury so I will choose open carry to deter criminals. Here is one video that shows the value of announcing to criminals that I have a gun: [video=youtube_share;i9eQJ29e9II]http://youtu.be/i9eQJ29e9II[/video]

 

[Bobby]

It amazes me how many people make up situations in their heads as for why someone should carry a certain way. "The element of surprise" is nothing more than a fantasy crocked up in someone's imagination of a best case scenario that will never happen. You will not have a bad guy come into a restaurant while you are sitting down and give you just the right amount of time to catch him off guard while he is "holding up" the whole store. The chances that you will be a victim in one of the aforementioned fringe zones (come on people, you did read through that article and all the links like I spent 3 hours doing today, right?) are so much higher than the fantasy scenario that it's not even worth mentioning.

People only see this crap on the news or in movies and think it's real life. Sorry to bust anyone's bubble here but in real life, truly insane people that kill for the sake of killing are vastly less likely to appear in your surroundings than someone who is looking to mug you, and that someone who wants to mug you wants to do just that; not kill you for the sake of killing. He wants to take what you have, run, and never be seen again, and if you pose a threat to his life, he will move on.

As the article so eloquently pointed out, the "element of surprise" is an offensive, not defensive tactic. It's nothing more than a feel-good buzz word to justify one's unwavering opinion.

Why does nobody invade the USA? Because there are 3x more guns than there are people. Because we have the most powerful military in the world, and it's no secret.

My wife will open carry to make it painfully clear she is not an easy target.

I completely agree with everything except the reason for why we are not invaded. I happen to believe we have not been invaded before now because of all the weapons in PRIVATE hands NOT the military's. It is not the military and their level of training that is the deterrent. Rather, it is the large amount of weapons scattered across the USA in private hands that is the true deterrent to an invading army. Private citizens under arms defending their homes far outnumber the US military. Your post is an excellent one so don't be a stranger on here!

 

[Bluejeeper]

It amazes me how many people make up situations in their heads as for why someone should carry a certain way. "The element of surprise" is nothing more than a fantasy crocked up in someone's imagination of a best case scenario that will never happen. You will not have a bad guy come into a restaurant while you are sitting down and give you just the right amount of time to catch him off guard while he is "holding up" the whole store. The chances that you will be a victim in one of the aforementioned fringe zones (come on people, you did read through that article and all the links like I spent 3 hours doing today, right?) are so much higher than the fantasy scenario that it's not even worth mentioning.

People only see this crap on the news or in movies and think it's real life. Sorry to bust anyone's bubble here but in real life, truly insane people that kill for the sake of killing are vastly less likely to appear in your surroundings than someone who is looking to mug you, and that someone who wants to mug you wants to do just that; not kill you for the sake of killing. He wants to take what you have, run, and never be seen again, and if you pose a threat to his life, he will move on.

As the article so eloquently pointed out, the "element of surprise" is an offensive, not defensive tactic. It's nothing more than a feel-good buzz word to justify one's unwavering opinion.

Why does nobody invade the USA? Because there are 3x more guns than there are people. Because we have the most powerful military in the world, and it's no secret.

My wife will open carry to make it painfully clear she is not an easy target.

Welcome! It's really nice to read a well thought out, logical post by a new guy...or well by much of anybody for that matter. Stick around and enjoy the forum!

 

[XtremeRevolution]

Welcome to INGO! You are a sight for sore eyes.

Thank you!

I completely agree with everything except the reason for why we are not invaded. I happen to believe we have not been invaded before now because of all the weapons in PRIVATE hands NOT the military's. It is not the military and their level of training that is the deterrent. Rather, it is the large amount of weapons scattered across the USA in private hands that is the true deterrent to an invading army. Private citizens under arms defending their homes far outnumber the US military. Your post is an excellent one so don't be a stranger on here!

I completely agree. I remember the phrase "a gun behind every blade of grass." I plan to be active here as much as time allows, which should be plenty since I work from home and take occasional breaks.

Welcome! It's really nice to read a well thought out, logical post by a new guy...or well by much of anybody for that matter. Stick around and enjoy the forum!

Thanks!

My dad ran away from a communist country (Romania) in 1989. I came in 1991 when I was 5 years and 6 months, and we lived in Los Angeles until I moved to Illinois in 2004. I moved to Indiana this year in June so you bet I'm going to carry. I know what it's like to live in a communist country, then two "may as well be communist" states and can appreciate the true meaning of freedom more than most. My permit (lifetime) is now pending ISP approval, but the holster, belt, and 1911 are ready to go.

 

[danielson]

Left handed and carries a 1911..... Bold....