The (Current year) General Political/Salma Hayek discussion Thread Part V

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    jamil

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    The view that the left right divide is unbridgeable is a dangerous one. If you believe that, where do you think this inevitably leads?

    The divide is currently unbridgeable depending on which factions you're talking about. Moderates, sane left, and sane right can still bridge the gaps, but not the fringes. And unfortunately, right now the fringe is kinda controlling the conversation.

    Woke culture is completely incompatible with traditional American values. I know where that leads, which is why it worries me. I'm trying to understand how people can bridge the gap to stop this. The problem is that too few people on either side has the language to communicate with the other. The more ideological one is, the worse is the problem. Neither side understands the other, and they both are as uncharitable with their interpretations of what the other says. They don't communicate in good faith. They don't trust each other. These are all the rules you break intentionally if you want an unbridgeable gap. We're not doing this because we want to though. We're doing it because it is the default behavior. We are wired to do that.

    If we want to bridge the divide, we have to have...I'll say it this way...a safe space. What I mean by that is that the environment for the conversation has to be one of mutual trust. An understanding between the people that both sides will communicate in good faith. And there's a lot wrapped around that term. Primarily it is an understanding that both sides have at least some value. In a recent podcast I listened to, one of the speakers equated it with signal to noise. Something objectively true is the signal. The noise represents is just ideological dogma. In just about every world view there is at least a little signal and everyone has at least a little noise. Some more, some less. But if we are interested in increasing our own signal and decreasing our own noise, we should be open to interact with people who disagree in even fundamental ways, to search out and receive the signal, while still rejecting the noise.

    But that's literally an extraordinary conversation to have. There is a lot of evolutionary default behavior circuitry that we have to override to have that kind of conversation. I have yet to hear that conversation between woke people and even run of the mill liberals. Last year, maybe the year before, I sat through over an hour of Sam Harris trying to have that kind of conversation with Ezra Kline. It just wasn't possible. There was no bridging that divide. To Sam's credit, he did try. Kline could not think past his own ideological dogma. Kline seemed to take the attitude that Sam was wrong no matter what he said, and it didn't sound to me like Kline even listened. Sam talked, and then Kline went right into his wokology.
     

    jamil

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    I view antifa as about as big a problem as white supremacists groups, a very overblown one. Both sides like to harp on how the other is the boogeyman and an existential threat.

    Both are a problem. White supremacist groups are a contained problem. They have no institutional power. Antifa does. They have cover from the media, local governments--do you see any Mayors of right wing communities telling police to stand down when the white supremacists riot?

    You're right that it's not a huge problem because Antifa is constrained to the most liberal cities. But it's not a "meh" problem either. Last I checked, the SPLC said that there were ~10K real ass white supremacists active in the US. Compared with history, this is historically low. So it's not a huge problem on the right either. But if you ask a progressive about how much racism there is in the US, they seriously think that the US is the kind of place where two white men would jump a black gay man in Chicago at 2AM in -9 degree temperatures, pour bleach on him, and proclaim that the Wacker Drive area of downtown Chicago is "Maga country".

    I think of course that both those world views have way more noise than signal, and they're probably similar in proportion of noise. But it's obvious, given the outrage over what everyone should have assumed was a hoax, that there are a lot more people subscribing to the "Maga country" hysteria on the left, than there are people on the right subscribing to the "Antifa" hysteria.
     

    Alpo

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    "OK, Boomer".

    It is difficult to believe that a 15 year old can be condescending, but there it is. And it serves as fairly consistent metaphor for a group of over-priveleged kids who have never known personal sacrifice. It isn't everyone of that generation, of course. Probably not the largest segment. But it is the attitude of those with privilege. You, me, anyone over 30. We suck. We know nothing and we are responsible for all of the planets and their personal ills.


    **** em. But I'm old. I don't give a damn about them. And I certainly will never be woke.
     

    jamil

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    The way in which the liberal elites on the coastal cities don't really know conservatives INGO doesnt really know 'leftists' the worst anyone gets here is a moderate Democrat or two and some classical liberals.

    Was there supposed to be punctuation? There might be some interesting ideas there, but I honestly can't be certain. I'd appreciate an edit.
     

    DoggyDaddy

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    "OK, Boomer".

    It is difficult to believe that a 15 year old can be condescending, but there it is. And it serves as fairly consistent metaphor for a group of over-priveleged kids who have never known personal sacrifice. It isn't everyone of that generation, of course. Probably not the largest segment. But it is the attitude of those with privilege. You, me, anyone over 30. We suck. We know nothing and we are responsible for all of the planets and their personal ills.


    **** em. But I'm old. I don't give a damn about them. And I certainly will never be woke. And stay off my lawn!

    FIFY... And I can't find much to disagree with, but back in the 60's, the mantra was also "don't trust anyone over 30". ;)
     

    Hatin Since 87

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    "OK, Boomer".

    It is difficult to believe that a 15 year old can be condescending, but there it is. And it serves as fairly consistent metaphor for a group of over-priveleged kids who have never known personal sacrifice. It isn't everyone of that generation, of course. Probably not the largest segment. But it is the attitude of those with privilege. You, me, anyone over 30. We suck. We know nothing and we are responsible for all of the planets and their personal ills.


    **** em. But I'm old. I don't give a damn about them. And I certainly will never be woke.

    Im over 30, don’t lump me in with you boomers tho! :p
     

    jamil

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    "OK, Boomer".

    It is difficult to believe that a 15 year old can be condescending, but there it is. And it serves as fairly consistent metaphor for a group of over-priveleged kids who have never known personal sacrifice. It isn't everyone of that generation, of course. Probably not the largest segment. But it is the attitude of those with privilege. You, me, anyone over 30. We suck. We know nothing and we are responsible for all of the planets and their personal ills.


    **** em. But I'm old. I don't give a damn about them. And I certainly will never be woke.

    Here's what I say to 15 year olds who call me "boomer".

    "Are you sure you're not mis-generationing me? because that would be ageist to mis-generation me."

    Honestly though, I don't blame them. I mean we disparage and joke about Millennials and GenZ (Linksters) and their safe spaces. We call them *******, betas, and basement dwellers. I guess after awhile they kinda want to lash out. From their moms' basements.
     

    jamil

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    Im over 30, don’t lump me in with you boomers tho! :p

    Okay. Here's the thing about generations. We're all a product of our environments. We all have the same firmware. We just have different inputs. And that makes behavior different. If it's Boomer's fault how Millenials turned out then it's the greatest generation's fault for how boomers turned out, and so on. It's basically turtles all the way down.
     

    Alpo

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    Here's what I say to 15 year olds who call me "boomer".

    "Are you sure you're not mis-generationing me? because that would be ageist to mis-generation me."

    Honestly though, I don't blame them. I mean we disparage and joke about Millennials and GenZ (Linksters) and their safe spaces. We call them *******, betas, and basement dwellers. I guess after awhile they kinda want to lash out. From their moms' basements.

    I don't know. I spent a lot of time in my life with my mouth shut. Listening always seemed to be better than talking and I was never one who could speak and listen to what someone else was saying at the same time.

    It also seems I had a lot of questions when I was 15. I certainly didn't have a lot of answers. And if I ever mentioned to my dad that he was responsible for (whatever), I probably would have hit the road and lived as a homeless person from that point on, fearing my death was nigh.
     

    nonobaddog

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    The divide is currently unbridgeable depending on which factions you're talking about. Moderates, sane left, and sane right can still bridge the gaps, but not the fringes. And unfortunately, right now the fringe is kinda controlling the conversation.

    Woke culture is completely incompatible with traditional American values. I know where that leads, which is why it worries me. I'm trying to understand how people can bridge the gap to stop this. The problem is that too few people on either side has the language to communicate with the other. The more ideological one is, the worse is the problem. Neither side understands the other, and they both are as uncharitable with their interpretations of what the other says. They don't communicate in good faith. They don't trust each other. These are all the rules you break intentionally if you want an unbridgeable gap. We're not doing this because we want to though. We're doing it because it is the default behavior. We are wired to do that.

    If we want to bridge the divide, we have to have...I'll say it this way...a safe space. What I mean by that is that the environment for the conversation has to be one of mutual trust. An understanding between the people that both sides will communicate in good faith. And there's a lot wrapped around that term. Primarily it is an understanding that both sides have at least some value. In a recent podcast I listened to, one of the speakers equated it with signal to noise. Something objectively true is the signal. The noise represents is just ideological dogma. In just about every world view there is at least a little signal and everyone has at least a little noise. Some more, some less. But if we are interested in increasing our own signal and decreasing our own noise, we should be open to interact with people who disagree in even fundamental ways, to search out and receive the signal, while still rejecting the noise.

    But that's literally an extraordinary conversation to have. There is a lot of evolutionary default behavior circuitry that we have to override to have that kind of conversation. I have yet to hear that conversation between woke people and even run of the mill liberals. Last year, maybe the year before, I sat through over an hour of Sam Harris trying to have that kind of conversation with Ezra Kline. It just wasn't possible. There was no bridging that divide. To Sam's credit, he did try. Kline could not think past his own ideological dogma. Kline seemed to take the attitude that Sam was wrong no matter what he said, and it didn't sound to me like Kline even listened. Sam talked, and then Kline went right into his wokology.

    Excellent!
    Kind of like - "What we've got here is a failure to communicate" - but said with infinitely more eloquence.
     

    Ingomike

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    The divide is currently unbridgeable depending on which factions you're talking about. Moderates, sane left, and sane right can still bridge the gaps, but not the fringes. And unfortunately, right now the fringe is kinda controlling the conversation.

    Woke culture is completely incompatible with traditional American values. I know where that leads, which is why it worries me. I'm trying to understand how people can bridge the gap to stop this. The problem is that too few people on either side has the language to communicate with the other. The more ideological one is, the worse is the problem. Neither side understands the other, and they both are as uncharitable with their interpretations of what the other says. They don't communicate in good faith. They don't trust each other. These are all the rules you break intentionally if you want an unbridgeable gap. We're not doing this because we want to though. We're doing it because it is the default behavior. We are wired to do that.

    If we want to bridge the divide, we have to have...I'll say it this way...a safe space. What I mean by that is that the environment for the conversation has to be one of mutual trust. An understanding between the people that both sides will communicate in good faith. And there's a lot wrapped around that term. Primarily it is an understanding that both sides have at least some value. In a recent podcast I listened to, one oz

    f the speakers equated it with signal to noise. Something objectively true is the signal. The noise represents is just ideological dogma. In just about every world view there is at least a little signal and everyone has at least a little noise. Some more, some less. But if we are interested in increasing our own signal and decreasing our own noise, we should be open to interact with people who disagree in even fundamental ways, to search out and receive the signal, while still rejecting the noise.

    But that's literally an extraordinary conversation to have. There is a lot of evolutionary default behavior circuitry that we have to override to have that kind of conversation. I have yet to hear that conversation between woke people and even run of the mill liberals. Last year, maybe the year before, I sat through over an hour of Sam Harris trying to have that kind of conversation with Ezra Kline. It just wasn't possible. There was no bridging that divide. To Sam's credit, he did try. Kline could not think past his own ideological dogma. Kline seemed to take the attitude that Sam was wrong no matter what he said, and it didn't sound to me like Kline even listened. Sam talked, and then Kline went right into his wokology.


    "First, we are divided by our vision of what we want America to be.
    The right believes the founders' vision was brilliant and moral, that bourgeois middle-class values are superior to alternative value systems; that rights come from God, not man; and that the state must be as small as possible. The left (not liberals) shares none of those values.


    Second, we are divided by the means we use to achieve our vision. Given their different ends, left and right obviously differ on what means to use to achieve their ends.


    Third, and perhaps most troubling, there is a reality-perception divide. Left and right have different perceptions of reality."


    Prager has it very well dialed in. If reality cannot be agreed upon, what can?

    Open borders or secured borders?

    Planet dies in 10 years due to man?

    Free speech or speech codes?


    Mamy more...


     

    jamil

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    Period after 'leftists'.
    Ah. thanks. I think that cracks the code.

    I'm not complaining about the lack of punctuation. I don't like using punctuation when I'm posting from a phone either. It's just that there were a few ways it could go and I was unsure. I think the punctuation goes like this. Correct me if I'm wrong.
    The way in which the liberal elites on the coastal cities don't really know conservatives, INGO doesnt really know 'leftists'. The worst anyone gets here is a moderate Democrat or two and some classical liberals.

    Okay so the second part, you're right. We've had some people on INGO who I would say are center-left. ddreese? Was that his screen name? And we had some dude who claimed he was an adjunct professor at IU. He was fairly anti-gun, unless it was his guns. But I wouldn't call him far left either. Progressive, but not fringe. He didn't last here long either, but he was a bit of an *******. Ddreese actually tried to understand the general worldview here.

    The first part is a little true, but not necessarily a lot true. In research cited by Johnathan Haidt in The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion, people on the far left were far less able to predict how how moderates and conservatives would answer questions about moral issues than conservatives were. His thesis was that progressives have a much narrower set of moral foundations with which they interpret the world, than conservatives. I don't think that tells the whole story, because in my own experience people who seem ideologically possessed, regardless of which ideology, can't seem to understand other viewpoints. I define "understanding" as being able to re-state a different position in a way that someone who held that position would agree.

    Haidt's research was mostly about morality, which he asserts overlaps a lot with politics, because moral foundations shape worldviews. So it may be true that his assertion explains reality for people in the sane parts of the spectrum. But for ideologues, I think the signal to noise ratio as an explanation is more informative. Far left and far right people believe the worst about people with different worldviews. If we all interpret everything against our own internal model of the world, it seems reasonable to think that a dogmatic worldview could not give an accurate interpretation of people with different or even dogmatically different worldviews.
     

    jamil

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    The way in which the liberal elites on the coastal cities don't really know conservatives, INGO doesnt really know 'leftists'. The worst anyone gets here is a moderate Democrat or two and some classical liberals.

    "First, we are divided by our vision of what we want America to be.
    The right believes the founders' vision was brilliant and moral, that bourgeois middle-class values are superior to alternative value systems; that rights come from God, not man; and that the state must be as small as possible. The left (not liberals) shares none of those values.


    Second, we are divided by the means we use to achieve our vision. Given their different ends, left and right obviously differ on what means to use to achieve their ends.


    Third, and perhaps most troubling, there is a reality-perception divide. Left and right have different perceptions of reality."


    Prager has it very well dialed in. If reality cannot be agreed upon, what can?

    Open borders or secured borders?

    Planet dies in 10 years due to man?

    Free speech or speech codes?


    Mamy more...



    Prager borrows heavily from Thomas Sowell, A Conflict of Visions. He's right, but there is a lot more going on about why there is a conflict of visions, and why we can't bridge the divide. We used to be able to do that. But as worldviews diverge, there's a point where the divide is too far to bridge. A worldview which thinks everything is a social construct, that Identity groups each have a subjective truth that must be accepted without question (unless it is the dominant identity in the hierarchy), is completely incompatible with an identity based on traditional liberal Western values. (By liberal I don't mean "American Liberal", I mean a person who values individual liberty).

    If you like what Prager wrote, you might like the depth with which Thomas Sowell goes into it in his book. But a warning, it is an extremely dry and tedious read. He's an economist and provides no literary hooks to keep the reader's interest.
     

    Ingomike

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    Prager borrows heavily from Thomas Sowell, A Conflict of Visions. He's right, but there is a lot more going on about why there is a conflict of visions, and why we can't bridge the divide. We used to be able to do that. But as worldviews diverge, there's a point where the divide is too far to bridge. A worldview which thinks everything is a social construct, that Identity groups each have a subjective truth that must be accepted without question (unless it is the dominant identity in the hierarchy), is completely incompatible with an identity based on traditional liberal Western values. (By liberal I don't mean "American Liberal", I mean a person who values individual liberty).

    If you like what Prager wrote, you might like the depth with which Thomas Sowell goes into it in his book. But a warning, it is an extremely dry and tedious read. He's an economist and provides no literary hooks to keep the reader's interest.


    I have followed Dr. Sowell for 30+ years. I should read some of his books...
     

    ArcadiaGP

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    https://twitter.com/AP/status/1194071962487836672

    AP said:
    The Democratic presidential race started with a record six female candidates, but only one is polling in the top tier. Is it sexism or just politics?

    giphy.gif
     
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