The 2017 General Salma Hayek discussion thread...Part 3!!!

[jamil]

Thats the funny thing, I don't understand why you, or others, somehow think I'm on Trump's side. I've made my feelings on him pretty clearly known since well before the election.

Just because I think the FACTUAL scenario we are working within is less damning/more incomplete than you do somehow means I'm on the "other side"?

I am REALLY concerned for our county's future, both because of who the voters elected AND because of how lightly many are willing to gut our system of government to "save" us from the elected guy who concerns me.

The reason I quoted your post was because you didn't even give the slightest supporting argument for saying that the FBI didn't have prior knowledge that Manafort was a white collar criminal. The guy above posted the reporters retraction so I picked the example most relevant to my point.

My concerns with what Bob Mueller is doing is not out of fealty to DJT, it is because I am worried it is just going to be another knife stuck in the guts of our system of government which will then be used to justify the same behavior by EVERY outgoing administration.

I suspect you don’t fit in Kut’s false dichotomy either.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Thats the funny thing, I don't understand why you, or others, somehow think I'm on Trump's side. I've made my feelings on him pretty clearly known since well before the election.

Just because I think the FACTUAL scenario we are working within is less damning/more incomplete than you do somehow means I'm on the "other side"?

I am REALLY concerned for our county's future, both because of who the voters elected AND because of how lightly many are willing to gut our system of government to "save" us from the elected guy who concerns me.

The reason I quoted your post was because you didn't even give the slightest supporting argument for saying that the FBI didn't have prior knowledge that Manafort was a white collar criminal. The guy above posted the reporters retraction so I picked the example most relevant to my point.

My concerns with what Bob Mueller is doing is not out of fealty to DJT, it is because I am worried it is just going to be another knife stuck in the guts of our system of government which will then be used to justify the same behavior by EVERY outgoing administration.

And that's the first time you've seen such? C'mon Fargo. IMO you spoke up, because I'm an easy target. Jamil often does the same thing. If I had recollection of you doing the same to the "other side," I wouldn't have mentioned it. If your concerned, don't cherry pick. You probably had a fair idea that my post was disingenuous, turning the table on a often used convention... but whereas mine was facetious, when used in most other instances, the posters are dead serious.

 

[jamil]

And that's the first time you've seen such? C'mon Fargo. IMO you spoke up, because I'm an easy target. Jamil often does the same thing. If I had recollection of you doing the same to the "other side," I wouldn't have mentioned it. If your concerned, don't cherry pick. You probably had a fair idea that my post was disingenuous, turning the table on a often used convention... but whereas mine was facetious, when used in most other instances, the posters are dead serious.

No no. I'd say you're an exemplary target. I wouldn't say you're easy.

 

[Kutnupe14]

No no. I'd say you're an exemplary target. I wouldn't say you're easy.

Lol, the other side uses the same logic.

 

[jamil]

I’m aware of the people arrested. I’d like to discuss the list of arrestees and how that supports your beliefs as you’ve stated them. So if you don’t mind. Please list them.

It's amazing to see how easy it is to dismiss the crimes people who have worked so closely with this administration have committed.

That's my belief:


You either think they haven't committed crimes and dismiss the charges as false arrest, or you think they did commit the crimes, got caught, and shouldn't be charged. Nothing more to discuss after that.

And that of course is the false dichotomy.

So, let's discuss now that SD4L posted the arrestees.

Here, I'll list them for you:


Flynn: Lying to the FBI while they were investigating a non-crime, i.e. legal phone conversations that the FBI had recordings of and KNEW there was no crime present

Papadapolous: Lying to the FBI while they were investigating a non-crime, i.e. establishing diplomatic contacts: FBI had tapped the convos and knew there was no crime present

Manafort: Money laundering that started taking place a decade prior to the election, and that the FBI started investigating 6 years prior to the election - to date, no connection to Trump even hinted


So the smoking gun leading to Trump is.... ????

(SD4L often sees these "that's a ridiculous question" answers when it's actually the answer that will prove embarassing, the emperor has no clothes - Mueller is running nekid down Main Street here)

Flynn. Broke the law. It's a crime. He should be charged and prosecuted, and punished according to whatever courts decide.

Papadapolious, same thing. Charge, prosecute, and punish accordingly.

Manafort: fry him. That dude is shady.

That's clearly outside of your dichotomy. My only point about those people is exactly what I said. That none of it supports the conclusion you're hoping for. In the case of the former two, their crimes were for lying about doing something that was politically damaging, but wasn't illegal, and had nothing to do with collusion.

In the case of Manafort, it's for what he did 6 years ago, not for the conclusion you're hoping for.

And keep in mind, I'm not defending Trump here. I'm just saying what's true and what's not. If we find out he broke laws, he should be punished for it.

But I completely agree with Fargo, that it seems like the precedent we're setting here is to is for the opposition party to perpetually investigate each new president to see if there's anything they can find to ruin him/her. Do you think Obama would have come out of the other side of a special prosecutor hand picked by his enemies? Clinton didn't. Eventually you'll screw up, and then, gotcha. Clinton's crime wasn't for lying about anything illegal. It was for lying.

 

[jamil]

Lol, the other side uses the same logic.

what other side?

I don't get this side thing. It's issue by issue. Sometimes, admittedly, rarely, I agree with you. Sometimes I agree with other people. Nothing about discussing opinions is all that binary. Yeah, you're either wrong or right, but it's more of a spectrum, because you're not usually completely wrong, or completely right. So why not try to figure out what is right or true about something and also what is wrong or false about it?

 

[BugI02]

Fake news.

I know the phrase is catchy and all, but I really long for the days when people would just say "X is not true and here is why".

I really find the phrase to be devoid of any actual definition other than "don't feel like making an actual argument" so I generally don't really pay attention anyone using it to justify their position.

I don't know what to call the latest CNN debacle but fake news. Even after it's proven to be incorrect; no retraction, no serious attempt to reach as many people with a correction as you reached with the false story, just a one line editors note at the end of the original story (that few people will return to looking for updates)

https://theintercept.com/2017/12/09...-refuses-all-transparency-over-what-happened/
The U.S. Media Yesterday Suffered its Most Humiliating Debacle in Ages: Now Refuses All Transparency Over What Happened

But what one should expect with journalistic “mistakes” is that they sometimes go in one direction, and other times go in the other direction. That’s exactly what has not happened here. Virtually every false story published goes only in one direction: to be as inflammatory and damaging as possible on the Trump/Russia story and about Russia particularly. At some point, once “mistakes” all start going in the same direction, toward advancing the same agenda, they cease looking like mistakes.

No matter your views on those political controversies, no matter how much you hate Trump or regard Russia as a grave villain and threat to our cherished democracy and freedoms, it has to be acknowledged that when the U.S. media is spewing constant false news about all of this, that, too, is a grave threat to our democracy and cherished freedom.

At minimum, these networks – CNN, MSNBC and CBS – have to either identify who purposely fed them this blatantly false information, or explain how it’s possible that “multiple sources” all got the same information wrong in innocence and good faith. Until they do that, their cries and protests the next time they’re attacked as “Fake News” should fall on deaf ears, since the real author of those attacks – the reason those attacks resonate – is themselves and their own conduct.

Once again, The Left projects. Trump is literally Hitler, but who is it that is so enamored of "The Big Lie"

Originally Posted by AdolphHitler

All this was inspired by the principle—which is quite true within itself—that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods.

It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying.

 

[jamil]

Once again, The Left projects. Trump is literally Hitler, but who is it that is so enamored of "The Big Lie"

Originally Posted by AdolphHitler

What's the bigger lie?

"My inauguration crowds were bigger than Obama's"

or,

"If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor. If you like your healthcare plan, you can keep your healthcare plan. Period."

 

[IndyDave1776]

You could list a hundred examples and get the same response. The press has deified the former president and the faithful will not waiver in their worship of him.

Very true!

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Birds Away again.

You seem to be conflating the idea of being arrested and being guilty as charged

By your definition, Magnitsky was guilty because he was arrested and convicted. The rest of us temper our fervor in proportion to how many marsupials are on the court and participating in the investigation

Funny how that works. Often we see the same vision of "justice" I was taught in training with the Department of Correction--in the effort to prevent new hires from getting sucked into sob stories, they repetitively emphasized that 100% of them were found guilty by the court, therefore 100% of them are guilty. Anyone knowing the actual process knows better than this, albeit aware that in some places you really can't take that to work with you, but it doesn't change the truth.

A little research shows me that the US has 3007 counties

Irregularities in 462 of them means there were voting irregularities in ~15.4 percent of those parcels, but you do not support giving the commission the information necessary to get to the bottom of it

Despite rhetorical flourishes, and disregarding massive evidence, you seem unable to believe The Hag left those men to die in Benghazi or that such perfidy would and could embolden others to attack US personnel

And the connection between these views and others you hold is "no indictments, no convictions" You would have loved Capone's Chicago

I suppose some people would need enough evidence for convictions in 99% of all counties before conceding that an investigation is reasonable, although mere whispers are all that is necessary regarding Trump and Roy Moore.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to BugI02 again.

 

[Fargo]

And that's the first time you've seen such? C'mon Fargo. IMO you spoke up, because I'm an easy target. Jamil often does the same thing. If I had recollection of you doing the same to the "other side," I wouldn't have mentioned it. If your concerned, don't cherry pick. You probably had a fair idea that my post was disingenuous, turning the table on a often used convention... but whereas mine was facetious, when used in most other instances, the posters are dead serious.

In all honesty, I didn't realize you were being facetious. My mistake.

I spoke up because I find value in discussing/debating you which is a far from universal position of mine. There are many on both sides I just don't care to engage but you are not one of them. The last warning I got was in the Sherrif Joe thread where I was stupid enough to engage a true Trump believer. If you don't believe me, you really need to go back and read my exchanges with some of your "other side", for example, SD4L.

You also might note that it took multiple posts about political hypocrisy before you could even consider that I wasn't defending the Republicans in this debacle.

If you think that I consider you some sort of an easy target, it might be helpful to put away some of the chip on the shoulder because it seems to have gotten big enough that it is obscuring some of your vision. You and I come from very different backgrounds which is part of why I do value your perspective and engaging with you whether we are in agreement or not. I've said all this before, but you seem really distrustful of me although I'm not certain why.

 

[Alpo]

What's the bigger lie?

"My inauguration crowds were bigger than Obama's"

or,

"If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor. If you like your healthcare plan, you can keep your healthcare plan. Period."

So one lie is not counted if it isn't as big as the other one?

 

[Kutnupe14]

In all honesty, I didn't realize you were being facetious. My mistake.

I spoke up because I find value in discussing/debating you which is a far from universal position of mine. There are many on both sides I just don't care to engage but you are not one of them. The last warning I got was in the Sherrif Joe thread where I was stupid enough to engage a true Trump believer. If you don't believe me, you really need to go back and read my exchanges with some of your "other side", for example, SD4L.

You also might note that it took multiple posts about political hypocrisy before you could even consider that I wasn't defending the Republicans in this debacle.

If you think that I consider you some sort of an easy target, it might be helpful to put away some of the chip on the shoulder because it seems to have gotten big enough that it is obscuring some of your vision. You and I come from very different backgrounds which is part of why I do value your perspective and engaging with you whether we are in agreement or not. I've said all this before, but you seem really distrustful of me although I'm not certain why.

I'm not distrustful of you, there are plenty of people I respect, that sometimes seem to point out my "bad logic," but seem perfect willing to overlook other instances (i.e. Jamil). I may have been wrong in this instance and as such apologize... but I do wish folk would call out bad logic more often, when encountered.

 

[printcraft]

So one lie is not counted if it isn't as big as the other one?

Holy ****! You are really comparing those two statements as equal?

Who the **** was effected by Trumps lie? Nobody.
Who was effected by obamas blatant lie? Everybody.

 

[Kutnupe14]

What's the bigger lie?

"My inauguration crowds were bigger than Obama's"

or,

"If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor. If you like your healthcare plan, you can keep your healthcare plan. Period."

How about "I hire all the best people."?

 

[jamil]

So one lie is not counted if it isn't as big as the other one?

Um, check the context.

 

[jamil]

How about "I hire all the best people."?

Well. I guess if that’s a lie and not just a delusional opinion it would fit my comment as well.

 

[Alpo]

Holy ****! You are really comparing those two statements as equal?

Who the **** was effected by Trumps lie? Nobody.
Who was effected by obamas blatant lie? Everybody.

Did I make a statement or ask a question?

Do you hide in the weeds waiting for me to post so you can raise a stink?

Perhaps you need a new hobby.

 

[Fargo]

I'm not distrustful of you, there are plenty of people I respect, that sometimes seem to point out my "bad logic," but seem perfect willing to overlook other instances (i.e. Jamil). I may have been wrong in this instance and as such apologize... but I do wish folk would call out bad logic more often, when encountered.

No worries, I am sure I have blind spots, but most of the time when I ignore bad logic it is because I have despaired of tilting at the windmill of that persons logic.

 

[bwframe]

Are you gents really talking about politics or just arguing about arguing?

 

[printcraft]

Did I make a statement or ask a question?

Do you hide in the weeds waiting for me to post so you can raise a stink?

Perhaps you need a new hobby.

Your question implied they were on the same level.
No I just tune in and read between doing other things and when I see something so ludicrous it make audibly say WTF! I have to reply. It’s just a strange coincidence it happens to be one of your posts that makes me say that. It’s weird right?