The 2017 General Political discussion thread, Part 2!

[hoosierdoc]

Here's a great study on the subject by a Johns Hopkins doc who studied it for 40 years. You can read if you want but the headline sort of gives it away

Johns Hopkins Psychiatrist: Support of Transgenderism and Sex-Change Surgery Is ?Collaborating With Madness?

Johns Hopkins used to provide sex-reassignment surgery in the early 1970s, but after Dr. McHugh – psychiatrist-in-chief at Johns Hopkins Hospital 1975-2001 -- and his colleagues studied the issue further, they concluded “that Hopkins was fundamentally cooperating with a mental illness.”

 

[bwframe]

Question about insurance???

Other than prison, where would a person find gender reassignment costs paid for without their own financial investment? Military?

 

[Birds Away]

I have to admit when in the Military and during Don't Ask Don't Tell I felt that then. I've changed my mind. I admit I'm not a serving member now, but I have changed my mind.

Besides the most problems I saw then where with straight women and straight men. The problem was fratinization. The problem was not sexual orientation. If there's something diffrent with Transexuals serving then let's see that Military study. Let's not govern our reaction on spur of the moment political discions by Tweet.

Again you are conflating gay/lesbian issues with transgender. Not even close to the same thing. I have no issue with gays/lesbians in the military. They've always been there and they will continue to always be there.

 

[Dddrees]

Again you are conflating gay/lesbian issues with transgender. Not even close to the same thing. I have no issue with gays/lesbians in the military. They've always been there and they will continue to always be there.

And that may account for the divide between the two of us. I have to admit this transgender thing is still foreign to me. Not only don't I understand it I don't know that I have all the information on it.

But to this point like I said my strong belief in Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness is what I go by. Very hard to convince me otherwise.

 

[PaulF]

Paul, first you have to discount gender identity disorder as a psychiatric diagnosis

i don't

I'm inclined to follow your lead on that, having no medical background myself.

I was under the impression the medical community was moving away from the "mental illness" model for trans people...is that incorrect?

 

[jamil]

Scaramucci: "Very good idea who the leakers are"

Did he find a mirror? Kinda embarrassing when you chide the press for repprting on leaked information when you leaked the information in the first place.

 

[hoosierdoc]

I'm inclined to follow your lead on that, having no medical background myself.

I was under the impression the medical community was moving away from the "mental illness" model for trans people...is that incorrect?

I don't know, I don't keep up on it. But the medical community does all sorts of things for political and social reasons.

i see transgendered folks in the ER. Have yet to see one without serious mental health issues.

 

[Dddrees]

I'm inclined to follow your lead on that, having no medical background myself.

I was under the impression the medical community was moving away from the "mental illness" model for trans people...is that incorrect?

i think the problem with that is that type of argument has been used not only with Gays but Blacks as well.I mean at one point African Americans were said to not have the mental capacity or even to be loyal enough to serve.

 

[Birds Away]

And that may account for the divide between the two of us. I have to admit this transgender thing is still foreign to me. Not only don't I understand it I don't know that I have all the information on it.

But to this point like I said my strong belief in Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness is what I go by. Very hard to convince me otherwise.

I agree with that completely. But, as a society, we need to identify those people who need help and try to provide that if possible.

 

[Birds Away]

I'm inclined to follow your lead on that, having no medical background myself.

I was under the impression the medical community was moving away from the "mental illness" model for trans people...is that incorrect?

Just like with climate change it is very hard to separate the science from the politics.

 

[Dddrees]

I agree with that completely. But, as a society, we need to identify those people who need help and try to provide that if possible.

I'm sorry but I might be missunderstanding what your saying. What do you mean by help? Maybe they're not looking for help.

 

[Birds Away]

I'm sorry but I might be missunderstanding what your saying. What do you mean by help? Maybe they're not looking for help.

If the head of the Johns Hopkins Psychiatry Department thinks they need help then I would tend to follow his lead.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Well thought out and stated as usual. I think I still tend to disagree because treating everyone as equals is so important to me. Equals in that everyone has their right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

And so that's what I tried to do... find an equal case that is away from gender politics... and how I came to my opinion. The bipolar condition is very analogous in it's impact, need to heavy meds, and extremely high suicide rate. If there is a reason trans should be treated differently than bipolar, explain it to me as that reasoning escapes me.

Your "general" description of trans falls well short of reality.

Like homosexuals a couple of decades ago, the majority of the trans community exists "in the closet". No one knows there is anything different between "them" and "us". Why should a person like that be automatically disqualified from serious consideration?

With an outright ban (all roles), trans people can still serve...but they cannot do it without lying.

Don't robust anti-fraternization rules accomplish a similar result without excluding potentially desirable recruits or forcing otherwise good people to lie?

Then educate me. Are there measurable levels of severity? Are closet trans individuals able to hide their depression from those who know them well? My experience with depression is that people know there is a "problem" but not the cause.

My (limited) understanding is that even in places where trans is widely accepted, well medicated and hormone treatment is readily available, that trans suicide rates exceed the general population by an order of magnitude (10 times for the non-engineering types). While the peace-time military maybe can be transformed into that ideal environment, the war-time battlefield cannot. Bipolar or trans, I don't want to be in a foxhole with someone who is going through severe med withdrawal in the middle of a fire fight. IMO, it is unreasonable for you to ask me to put my life in his/her hands under those conditions.

I didn't mention it in my first post, but hormone therapy has severe side effects on its own all of which degrade "fitness to serve". For example, from wiki, male-to-female hormone therapy reduces muscle and strength, "reduces brain volume, induces mood and emotional swings; and induces headaches and magnifies existing migraine conditions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormone_replacement_therapy_(male-to-female)#Effects

In general, I would say if the condition includes "life altering" severe depression when not medicated (remember the battlefield) then the individual with that condition should not be there. They are unfit to serve regardless of their desire to do so.

 

[Dddrees]

Did he find a mirror? Kinda embarrassing when you chide the press for repprting on leaked information when you leaked the information in the first place.

This latest s*** just makes it appear more and more like an Administration in free fall. I mean if they could look anymore like they've all already proven to be. What a cluster****this Administration is. You can blame all the others you wish but a good majority of why you need too is that the Administration is so screwed up.

Some leaks may may very well be coming from not within, but there's no way some of this stuff isn't coming from his very own people.

 

[Dddrees]

If the head of the Johns Hopkins Psychiatry Department thinks they need help then I would tend to follow his lead.

Ah, Ok. Without this piece it sounded quite a bit diffrent to me.

 

[Dddrees]

And so that's what I tried to do... find an equal case that is away from gender politics... and how I came to my opinion. The bipolar condition is very analogous in it's impact, need to heavy meds, and extremely high suicide rate. If there is a reason trans should be treated differently than bipolar, explain it to me as that reasoning escapes me.



Then educate me. Are there measurable levels of severity? Are closet trans individuals able to hide their depression from those who know them well? My experience with depression is that people know there is a "problem" but not the cause.

My (limited) understanding is that even in places where trans is widely accepted, well medicated and hormone treatment is readily available, that trans suicide rates exceed the general population by an order of magnitude (10 times for the non-engineering types). While the peace-time military maybe can be transformed into that ideal environment, the war-time battlefield cannot. Bipolar or trans, I don't want to be in a foxhole with someone who is going through severe med withdrawal in the middle of a fire fight. IMO, it is unreasonable for you to ask me to put my life in his/her hands under those conditions.

I didn't mention it in my first post, but hormone therapy has severe side effects on its own all of which degrade "fitness to serve". For example, from wiki, male-to-female hormone therapy reduces muscle and strength, "reduces brain volume, induces mood and emotional swings; and induces headaches and magnifies existing migraine conditions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormone_replacement_therapy_(male-to-female)#Effects

In general, I would say if the condition includes "life altering" severe depression when not medicated (remember the battlefield) then the individual with that condition should not be there. They are unfit to serve regardless of their desire to do so.

You all gave me something more to think about. Thank you.

I have yet to change my mind yet, but I would certainly like to see more. This however may still be one of those things we get wrong now and decades later figure it out. Wouldn't be the first time for something like this.

 

[Birds Away]

Ah, Ok. Without this piece it sounded quite a bit diffrent to me.

I have no ill will for anyone. In a perfect world we would all be healthy and happy. Unfortunately, that isn't the world we've got and to try to beat reality into submission with idealism just makes reality even more cruel.

 

[Dddrees]

I have no ill will for anyone. In a perfect world we would all be healthy and happy. Unfortunately, that isn't the world we've got and to try to beat reality into submission with idealism just makes reality even more cruel.

Cool, I thought as much. It's just that I didn't want to leave the discussion where it stood with that last statement.

 

[Dddrees]

Ok guys, very much doubt that this will be the only source for this kind of news.

Donald Trump transgender ban tweet blindsided US Joint Chiefs - CNNPolitics.com

 

[Birds Away]

Ok guys, very much doubt that this will be the only source for this kind of news.

Donald Trump transgender ban tweet blindsided US Joint Chiefs - CNNPolitics.com

Yeah, I would prefer a more reputable source.