The 2017 General Political discussion thread, Part 2!

[OakRiver]

This topic got me interested in doing a bit more research. I watched the BBC series "The Celts" on youtube (good series, by the way) and did some further reading.

As to "scientific consensus": there is none. What appears to be known at this point is that the earliest Irish settlers are likely to have come from along the Atlantic coast of Europe and Iberia. Celtish language appears to have been broadly spread across Europe from north of the Alps to the eastern seaboard to the Russian steppes. Many anthropologists believe it to be the "lingua franca" of the time period, allowing all tribal groups the ability to communicate and trade. However, there is not much in the way of written documentation from the bronze or early iron age on the language, so though this explanation appears to have merit, it is somewhat speculative. Based on the widespread discoveries of Celtic crafts, it seems to be a reasonable conclusion.

The Celts arrived "late" in Ireland which had a healthy indigineous people and culture. DNA evidence (more than the above study of a single individual from antiquity) has been gathered from current residents in Britian. What seems to be indicated is that much of the mitochondrial DNA indicators show that in western Scotland, Corwall, Wales and Ireland (those groups bordering the Irish Sea) there is not much historical influence in the DNA; more indication of Iberian influence.

So, I'd say my world view as influenced by my family appears to be consistent with much of the present research.

You are free to ignore the multiple, credible sources I have provided and reply on a short series from the BBC. After all your argument is that there was Iberian influence in Ireland, which is unsurprising given the heavy Celtic presence there; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts

By stating that there is an Iberian connection to Ireland you are substantiating my argument. All the Iberian connection proves is the geographical location that the Celts came into Ireland from.

Whether or not the Celts came to Ireland "late" is immaterial and is akin to claiming that there is no American identity, only European, because there was a pre-existing indigenous people in this land and that the new settlers came primarily from Europe. There are numerous examples of Celtic influence in language, culture, art, customs, DNA, etc. that a connection with Ireland is indisputable to anyone having an honest look at the facts.

 

[ghitch75]

No protests in NASCAR after warnings from executives - National News - 13 WTHR Indianapolis

 

[Timjoebillybob]

1-10, because I have no reason to disrespect him.

Sorry Kut, that doesn't quite cut it for me. There are lots of people I don't disrespect, but don't respect. Disrespect like respect is something that is earned.

Certain things, yes. I don't take offense to people that oppose his policy or things related to his bad actions as president. But when people refer to him as the Kenyan, the Muslim, terrorist, Bathhouse Barry, Obongo, Obummer, etc etc etc, or call his wife a B*****, yeah, I'm going to have issue with it. You won't find me calling Trump anything approaching what Obama has been called, and you can trust I don't like Trump. If I referred to the current president regularly in such a way, I can assure you, I would **** most of INGO membership off, and they'd undoubtedly go off the rails.

I think I've used Obummer, but that is in regards to his policy and things relating to his actions. As for his wife, well... I will say that she has acted quite *****y at times.

If you asked me the same of Trump, you'd get the exact same answer. Even if I fiercely disagree with someone, I see no reason to disrespect them.

See above.

I have gone on record to say it doesn't matter where he was born. His mother is an American citizen and, therefore, so is he.

Not quite accurate.

I'll Preface this by saying that I am on record that his birth place is irrelevant because current interpretation of the constitution is that since his mother was American he is American. Period Full stop

However the claim that he was Kenyan (which I may needs tell you is not a race) has nothing to do with his race, but his nationality. The claim was that he got preferential treatment in college by claiming he was Kenyan. Much as Fauxahontas did claiming to be an American aboriginal.

Actually no, there is no interpretation of the Constitution that states that. If you believe otherwise please provide cites. Under the law at the time, if he was born abroad his mother could not have passed on birthright citizenship. That is if she was married, if unwed she could have. The law at the time for a married US citizen mother required them to have lived in the US for a period of 5 years after the age of 14, his mother was 18 at the time of his birth so didn't meet that requirement. He could have become a naturalized citizen, but not a natural born one.
https://travel.state.gov/content/tr...s-policies/citizenship-child-born-abroad.html

You really think that? How many times did you hear John McCain called "The Panamanian?"

What basis does McCain have to claim Panamanian citizenship?

When did Obama do this? Facts, not what you believe.

Fact, he claimed to be born in Kenya in his bio in at least one of his books.

Perhaps it is the constant Quixotic attempts at humiliation of democrats that seem to arise on INGO by people other than Kut and Me. I can't remember the last time I said "But...Obama" or used the eight years of his administration as any excuse for current activities by the present holder of the office or his subordinates.

How many times have you said "But... Bush"? Not sure if you have or not, but I have seen it here on INGO and many other places.

J, I didn't pay much attention to the Cruz flap, do you know if either of his parents was an american citizen before moving to Canada.

I'm serious, no alterior motive at all. I voted Cruz in the primary. At the very start I thought a Cruz Rubio ticket would be good.

Yes, his mother was and under the law at the time of his birth passed on birthright citizenship to him.

Cruz's mom was an American. I argued then that Cruz is an American and is eligible to be President. I also argued back in the day that Obama, even if he were born in Kenya, is still an Amrican through his mother's citizenship.

See above, Cruz's mother under the law passed on birthright citizenship.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Sorry Kut, that doesn't quite cut it for me. There are lots of people I don't disrespect, but don't respect. Disrespect like respect is something that is earned.

I disagree. Every stranger I meet, is entitled to respect, until they prove otherwise. There is no middle ground for me.

What basis does McCain have to claim Panamanian citizenship?

He was born in Panama, Panamanian citizenship is conferred at birth

Fact, he claimed to be born in Kenya in his bio in at least one of his books.

That is not a fact. The bio you're thinking of was crafted by a publishing assistant who failed to fact check. That was in 1991. In 1990 the NYT did an article on Obama that listed his birthplace as Hawaii.

 

[printcraft]

I


That is not a fact. The bio you're thinking of was crafted by a publishing assistant who failed to fact check. That was in 1991. In 1990 the NYT did an article on Obama that listed his birthplace as Hawaii.

Still haven't seen his college records .......

 

[jamil]

I disagree. Every stranger I meet, is entitled to respect, until they prove otherwise. There is no middle ground for me.

No. Definitions matter. Every stranger I meet is entitled to being treated cordially, with polite treatment. That's not the same thing as respect. If you want me to respect or disrespect you, either way, that has to be earned.

Respect: verb admire (someone or something) deeply, as a result of their abilities, qualities, or achievements.

How can I have any basis to respect you when I don't know anything about your abilities, qualities, or achievements? How can I have any basis to disrespect you without any knowledge of your character?

 

[jamil]

Still haven't seen his college records .......

This was the only aspect of the whole birther movement I thought had any play value. It's easy to infer from the facts that he claimed to be an exchange student to get a better standing. That his college records were sealed only gives people a reason to wonder. I think when people have a reason to wonder about something in a president's past, it's fair to ask for the documentation. It was fair for the public to ask for Trump's tax records because there were questions about his past dealings that are relevant to being president. It was fair for the public to ask for Obama's education records because there were questions about his admission status. Both politically motivated, sure. But fair.

 

[Kutnupe14]

No. Definitions matter. Every stranger I meet is entitled to being treated cordially, with polite treatment. That's not the same thing as respect. If you want me to respect or disrespect you, either way, that has to be earned.

Respect: verb admire (someone or something) deeply, as a result of their abilities, qualities, or achievements.

How can I have any basis to respect you when I don't know anything about your abilities, qualities, or achievements? How can I have any basis to disrespect you without any knowledge of your character?

If that's how we are defining respect, then can we agree that it is outside the bounds of how it is commonly used, and how it was meant within the context of this conversation? And so forth, I can say that I respect very, very, very few people.

 

[Alpo]

You are free to ignore the multiple, credible sources I have provided and reply on a short series from the BBC. After all your argument is that there was Iberian influence in Ireland, which is unsurprising given the heavy Celtic presence there; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts

By stating that there is an Iberian connection to Ireland you are substantiating my argument. All the Iberian connection proves is the geographical location that the Celts came into Ireland from.

Whether or not the Celts came to Ireland "late" is immaterial and is akin to claiming that there is no American identity, only European, because there was a pre-existing indigenous people in this land and that the new settlers came primarily from Europe. There are numerous examples of Celtic influence in language, culture, art, customs, DNA, etc. that a connection with Ireland is indisputable to anyone having an honest look at the facts.

The Celts were not responsible for Stonehenge, were they? There was[were] a prior indigineous population in Britain.

I'm sorry, but you really need to look at the research published over the last couple of years. You might be unaware of the migrations that occurred in the middle mesolithic period and the stability of the gene pool since that time. If you are speaking of language and customs, we have little argument. But language does not necessarily make one Celtic just as my speaking Mandarin does not make me Chinese.

If your family resided in Europe in the early 19th century, the likelihood is that there is some Celtic influence in your DNA...just as there is likely to be some Neanderthal.

The BBC reference is more for the lurkers who don't see the need to enter the conversation.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

I disagree. Every stranger I meet, is entitled to respect, until they prove otherwise. There is no middle ground for me.


He was born in Panama, Panamanian citizenship is conferred at birth


That is not a fact. The bio you're thinking of was crafted by a publishing assistant who failed to fact check. That was in 1991. In 1990 the NYT did an article on Obama that listed his birthplace as Hawaii.

Treating someone with respect is very different than respecting someone.

Actually he was born in the Panama Canal Zone, which at the time was a sovereign US territory. So no Panamanian citizenship conferred at birth.

Don't they submit the bio to the author before publishing?

No. Definitions matter. Every stranger I meet is entitled to being treated cordially, with polite treatment. That's not the same thing as respect. If you want me to respect or disrespect you, either way, that has to be earned.

Respect: verb admire (someone or something) deeply, as a result of their abilities, qualities, or achievements.

How can I have any basis to respect you when I don't know anything about your abilities, qualities, or achievements? How can I have any basis to disrespect you without any knowledge of your character?

Pretty much.

If that's how we are defining respect, then can we agree that it is outside the bounds of how it is commonly used, and how it was meant within the context of this conversation? And so forth, I can say that I respect very, very, very few people.

That is how I define it, and no I don't think we can agree to that. See above for the first half, and for the second that is how I interpreted it in the context of this conversation. And for me, more than a very few people. But perhaps I have a lower standard than yourself.

 

[jamil]

If that's how we are defining respect, then can we agree that it is outside the bounds of how it is commonly used, and how it was meant within the context of this conversation? And so forth, I can say that I respect very, very, very few people.

That's fair. Respect is narrowly defined enough to exclude most people one encounters in a lifetime.

If you want to say "respect" means treating people like you want to be treated, then I would agree that strangers get that benefit of the doubt until they've earned my disrespect. But I'm going by the dictionary meaning.

 

[Kutnupe14]

No. Definitions matter. Every stranger I meet is entitled to being treated cordially, with polite treatment. That's not the same thing as respect. If you want me to respect or disrespect you, either way, that has to be earned.

Respect: verb admire (someone or something) deeply, as a result of their abilities, qualities, or achievements.

How can I have any basis to respect you when I don't know anything about your abilities, qualities, or achievements? How can I have any basis to disrespect you without any knowledge of your character?

If that's how we are defining respect, then can we agree that it is outside the bounds of how it is commonly used, and how it was meant within the context of this conversation? And so forth, I can say that I respect very, very, very few people.

That is how I define it, and no I don't think we can agree to that. See above for the first half, and for the second that is how I interpreted it in the context of this conversation. And for me, more than a very few people. But perhaps I have a lower standard than yourself.

Well, you have apparently changed your opinion in the past few years.

3.I'm polite and respectful, if I'm treated the same. And even usually if I'm not. But telling an officer you don't consent to any searches is not being rude.

It seems like back then you were using "respectful" as being synonymous with "cordial," which IMO, most people do. Your statements clearly contradict each other.

 

[jamil]

Well, you have apparently changed your opinion in the past few years.



It seems like back then you were using "respectful" as being synonymous with "cordial," which IMO, most people do. Your statements clearly contradict each other.

I think when people don't think about it, they often conflate "respectful" and "polite", because both behaviors look similar. But I think the distinction is worth making because they're not the same thing. Making them the same thing dilutes the meaning of the few truly respect-worthy people.

And something related, we often hear respect the position, not necessarily the person. That has a meaning too. That because you respect the position, you have to behave a different way to the person in the position than you would if the person didn't have the position. Maybe you know the person is an ******* and you don't respect the person. But because he outranks you don't treat him with the disrespect he's earned as a person.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Well, you have apparently changed your opinion in the past few years.


It seems like back then you were using "respectful" as being synonymous with "cordial," which IMO, most people do. Your statements clearly contradict each other.

Nope, no change in opinion. Respecting someone is different than being respectful. There is a difference between showing someone respect aka being respectful and respecting the person. Heck I've been disrespectful while not joking around with someone I respected, although I'm not proud of it. Here is the definition of respectful.
:marked by or showing respect or deference
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/respectful

I can and have show(n) disrespect to someone I respected while joking around, I have also shown respect to someone I either didn't respect or disrespected the person. I would guess you have also, in fact I would almost guarantee the second knowing the profession you were engaged in.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Nope, no change in opinion. Respecting someone is different than being respectful. There is a difference between showing someone respect aka being respectful and respecting the person. Here is the definition of respectful.
:marked by or showing respect or deference
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/respectful

I can and have show(n) disrespect to someone I respected while joking around, I have also shown respect to someone I either didn't respect or disrespected the person. I would guess you have also, in fact I would almost guarantee the second knowing the profession you were engaged in.

Lol, yeah O-K. Intellectually dishonest post is dishonest.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Lol, yeah O-K. Intellectually dishonest post is dishonest.

No dishonesty, although you can believe what you wish. But I'm having a hard time believing that you don't know/can't understand the difference between showing respect and respecting someone.

 

[Kutnupe14]

No dishonesty, although you can believe what you wish. But I'm having a hard time believing that you don't know/can't understand the difference between showing respect and respecting someone.

It's completely dishonest. You either haven't been following the original discussion between Jamil and I (and not reading your own links), or you're being dishonest. There's no third option.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

It's completely dishonest. You either haven't been following the original discussion between Jamil and I (and not reading your own links), or you're being dishonest. There's no third option.

Nope, no dishonesty. I've been following the discussion although it was between you and Blue falcon. See below. I have also read my links, what part of my stance varies from them?

And one thing I think is comical. You dredging up a 7 yr old post to show my supposed intellectual dishonesty, or change in viewpoints. When you got all butt hurt when I pulled up one of yours that was just a couple of months old to show you just about 180 degree change in view depending on who was in the White house. You know that whole "It's his house he can do what he wants" vs "It's our house" thing?

I do not think that you blindly love Obama, Kut, however can you please list the top ten reasons you highly respect him.

1-10, because I have no reason to disrespect him.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Nope, no dishonesty. I've been following the discussion although it was between you and Blue falcon. See below. I have also read my links, what part of my stance varies from them?

And one thing I think is comical. You dredging up a 7 yr old post to show my supposed intellectual dishonesty, or change in viewpoints. When you got all butt hurt when I pulled up one of yours that was just a couple of months old to show you just about 180 degree change in view depending on who was in the White house. You know that whole "It's his house he can do what he wants" vs "It's our house" thing?

Anything you post on INGO is fair game. Don't act as if you did the same. You went stalker mode and tried to find something from another website that you thought would contradict me. I've said repeatedly, I stand by anything I've posted anywhere, and other posters pointed out that my stance that you pulled from that other site, was consistent with my posts here. Now that I know that stalking is acceptable for those that take "unique" interests in other members, knock yourself out.

As far as the crux of the argument, at hand, you are being completely intellectually dishonest. Jamil explained the differences earlier, between respectful and cordial, and noted that "respect" held a higher ground. Now you're saying respect is different that respectful... and you don't mean one's a noun, and the other an adverb. You are trying to pass off a difference in meaning, despite the fact that the definition you provided (and linked) indicated that "respectful" means "marked by showing respect or deference." Deference, look that one up.
I get you don't want to be wrong, least of all to me, right? But geez, how can you post a definition that plainly contradicts you, and then say it doesn't say what it says?

 

[Alpo]

[video=youtube_share;G2y8Sx4B2Sk]http://youtu.be/G2y8Sx4B2Sk[/video]