The 2017 General Political discussion thread, Part 2!

[2A_Tom]

J, I didn't pay much attention to the Cruz flap, do you know if either of his parents was an american citizen before moving to Canada.

I'm serious, no alterior motive at all. I voted Cruz in the primary. At the very start I thought a Cruz Rubio ticket would be good.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Lolz. Okay. So how many people do you reqire me quote calling Obama a Kenyan and calling cruz a Canadian? I don't want you moving the goalpost on me.

This is likely to take up a lot of time digging up posts from 2008 all the way though the 2016 primary. So I'd like you to confirm that you're calling all the INGO birthers racists. Because that's essentially what you're saying here. So when I quote all the people who called Obama "Kenyan", who also called Cruz Canadian, I'd rather you didn't just back down because you're embarrassed. I'd rather you just commit now before I go through all that work in my spare time.

So you really don't remember all the arguments about Cruz's citizanship? And you really don't remember who those posters were? And you really think it's unreasonable that the same people who used the birther argument against Obama did it for the same reasons they had problems with Cruz's citizenship? But no. The were racists for calling Obama. Kenyan, and for calling Cruz a Canadian they were what?

Alpo: "they can have mah racist card when they can pull it from mah..."

c'mon guys. You're better than that.

I remember the talk about Cruz's citizenship, I don't remember there being implied derision by repeatedly calling him "The Canadian." And I certainly haven't ever seen McCain referred to as "The Panamanian." But's lets say you're right about there being some parity between Cruz and Obama (which is laughable). I'll just ask this question. Is Cruz a minority?

 

[PaulF]

Lolz. Okay. So how many people do you reqire me quote calling Obama a Kenyan and calling cruz a Canadian? I don't want you moving the goalpost on me.

This is likely to take up a lot of time digging up posts from 2008 all the way though the 2016 primary. So I'd like you to confirm that you're calling all the INGO birthers racists. Because that's essentially what you're saying here. So when I quote all the people who called Obama "Kenyan", who also called Cruz Canadian, I'd rather you didn't just back down because you're embarrassed. I'd rather you just commit now before I go through all that work in my spare time.

So you really don't remember all the arguments about Cruz's citizanship? And you really don't remember who those posters were? And you really think it's unreasonable that the same people who used the birther argument against Obama did it for the same reasons they had problems with Cruz's citizenship? But no. The were racists for calling Obama. Kenyan, and for calling Cruz a Canadian they were what?

Alpo: "they can have mah racist card when they can pull it from mah..."

c'mon guys. You're better than that.

I don't care about Obama's citizenship. I never did. Same with Cruz.

I've worked a bunch of gun shows for INGO over the years. I have heard many other white people speak candidly about Obama when they think they are in 'safe' or like-minded company. There is undoubtedly a purely racial distaste for Obama among a non-zero portion of the conservative or right-wing population. There is a larger portion that has a racial component included in their distaste for Obama to some degree, but not comprising the whole of their opinion of the man.

I guess it's possible that some people really were that hung up on Obama's birthplace, but it seems clear to me than many others took on the mantle of 'Birther' to legitimize their pre-existing biases against Obama...and again, a non-zero potion of that group did so out of conscious racial bigotry or less-conscious racial bias. "I'm not racist, I care about the faithful application of the Constitution" comes off rather hollow when you stand shoulder to shoulder with actual racists shouting the same chorus.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I mean, the fact he's a subhuman mongoose Muslim Kenyan with a wookie who's ashamed of 'Murica isn't good enough for you?

Yeah, nothing to see here at all. In 2 minutes I was able to find at least 5 references from different people.

 

[2A_Tom]

What was the title of this thread again? Oh, The 2017 General Political discussion thread, Part 2!

 

[ATM]

...Well, we must learn to play with others, mustn't we?

 

[Kutnupe14]

lol

 

[jamil]

I remember the talk about Cruz's citizenship, I don't remember there being implied derision by repeatedly calling him "The Canadian." And I certainly haven't ever seen McCain referred to as "The Panamanian." But's lets say you're right about there being some parity between Cruz and Obama (which is laughable). I'll just ask this question. Is Cruz a minority?

Yes. He's Cuban-American. And certainly there was some animus against Cruz in the primaries. It seems reasonable to think the Trumpers would have animus against Cruz. I can't say for sure "Canadian" would be equivalently pejorative to "Kenyan", I mean, it's Canada, the essense of innocence. But nevertheless, the pejorative is in both cases "NOT REAL AMERICAN". Unless you're accusing those people of racism.

 

[jamil]

J, I didn't pay much attention to the Cruz flap, do you know if either of his parents was an american citizen before moving to Canada.

I'm serious, no alterior motive at all. I voted Cruz in the primary. At the very start I thought a Cruz Rubio ticket would be good.

Cruz's mom was an American. I argued then that Cruz is an American and is eligible to be President. I also argued back in the day that Obama, even if he were born in Kenya, is still an Amrican through his mother's citizenship.

 

[2A_Tom]

Thanks.

 

[Alpo]

Jamil: I won't dignify your intimations with a response, but I will give you one person who constantly challenged Obama's birth certificate and right to be president and Cruz's citizenship:

Trump

Here is one citation: Trump on Cruz: 'He was born in Canada' | TheHill

 

[SheepDog4Life]

No, it obviously was legal. I LE applies for a warrant, and all of the elements with in it are don't meet the requirements for it to be granted, then it's not to be issued. Even if Obama ordered an illegal wiretapping, at the point a judge granted it, it became legal. The onus falls on the judge. Once the judge grants it, regardless if it shouldn't have been issued, serving that warrant is indeed legal.
I also don't see what the issue is with using FISA against a US citizen, if the warrant is proper, and there is credible information that the US Citizen is working in the interests of a foreign power, at the detriment of the United States. If there Rosenberg's were living today, I'd imagine that a FISA warrant would have been a good tool to use.

The law authorizing FISA warrants (section 702) is titled: "Procedures for Targeting Certain Persons Outside the United States Other Than United States Persons".

'Nuff said.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Probably "blindly love" is overstated.

Defending indefensible conduct is a more appropriate description, IMO.

The same folks screaming about Trump's "behavior", appearance and tweets, etc, apparently have/had no problem with Obama's tangible actions contrary to the Constitution... i.e. abuses of power.

 

[jamil]

Defending indefensible conduct is a more appropriate description, IMO.

The same folks screaming about Trump's "behavior", appearance and tweets, etc, apparently have/had no problem with Obama's tangible actions contrary to the Constitution... i.e. abuses of power.

Defending "indefensible" conduct. HO-LEE ****. Are you kidding me? Much of Obama's behavior was "indefensible". Much of Trump's behavior was indefensible. So what should I think about anyone defending either's indefensible behavior? I think you're both stuck in tribe-think. Please. Free yourselves.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Defending "indefensible" conduct. HO-LEE ****. Are you kidding me? Much of Obama's behavior was "indefensible". Much of Trump's behavior was indefensible. So what should I think about anyone defending either's indefensible behavior? I think you're both stuck in tribe-think. Please. Free yourselves.

I wouldn't "defend" Trump's frequent thin-skinned, sophomoric behavior. His official ACTIONS, however, have been quite defensible and completely within the four corners of constitutional powers afforded the person occupying the office of President.

Obama wrote and spoke about his disdain for the restraints imposed by the Constitution, and especially in his second term, basically ignored the Constitution in his official ACTIONS.

Both Presidents took an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution. I'm not aware that either took an oath not to be a dumb-a** on twitter. One of the two is infinitely more important to me... if that puts me in a tribe, a tribe who believes in the Constitution versus those who do not, then that makes me nothing but proud.

 

[jamil]

I wouldn't "defend" Trump's frequent thin-skinned, sophomoric behavior. His official ACTIONS, however, have been quite defensible and completely within the four corners of constitutional powers afforded the person occupying the office of President.

Obama wrote and spoke about his disdain for the restraints imposed by the constitution, and especially in his second term, basically ignored the constitution in his official ACTIONS.

Both Presidents took an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution. I'm not aware that either took an oath not to be a dumd-a** on twitter. One of the to is infinitely more important to me... if that puts me in a tribe, a tribe who believes in the Constitution versus those who do not, then that makes me nothing but proud.

Agreeing with the constitution doesn't put you in a tribe any more than abiding by the law would.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Agreeing with the constitution doesn't put you in a tribe any more than abiding by the law would.

Engage your critical thinking... those who justify the end by any means, even unconstitutional means, are not in my tribe. Neither, in your second example, are criminals in the tribe of the law-abiding.

Interestingly, those outside the "Constitution tribe" and those outside the "follow the law tribe" think similarly... the rules don't apply to them.

ETA: And it's not just about "agreeing" with the Constitution... it is putting it first, even when it gets in the way of doing what you want to do, versus viewing it as an obstacle to be defeated. It is the thinking that defines the tribe, not the other way around.

 

[jamil]

Engage your critical thinking... those who justify the end by any means, even unconstitutional means, are not in my tribe. Neither, in your second example, are criminals in the tribe of the law-abiding.

Interestingly, those outside the "Constitution tribe" and those outside the "follow the law tribe" think similarly... the rules don't apply to them.

ETA: And it's not just about "agreeing" with the Constitution... it is putting it first, even when it gets in the way of doing what you want to do, versus viewing it as an obstacle to be defeated. It is the thinking that defines the tribe, not the other way around.

Then we are not using "tribe" to mean the same thing.

 

[jamil]

My country right or wrong.

Vs

My country when right.

the former is "tribal", the latter is not. The former is collectivist. The latter is individualist. For a tribe it matters whether others agree with you or not. If they don't, right or wrong, they can't belong to the tribe. As an individual, others agreeing with you or not, is not really anything more than an individual choice.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Then we are not using "tribe" to mean the same thing.

It is the basis upon which you assigned me to a tribe and tribe-think some posts ago.

Again, I'll take a "clown" President who acts in America's best interests and within the restraints of the Constitution over a very presidential-acting President who acts contrary to America's best interest AND abuses the Constitution, every single day of the week and twice on Sundays.

ETA: GO back to my original post and note that I heavily emphasized behavior versus actions. One is façade, the other substance.