The 2017 General Political discussion thread, Part 2!

[BugI02]

This sounds reasonable enough in principle. My only objection is that once we start using the law to enforce more than minimum standards, it gets twisted to be used on those with good intentions while ignoring the worst offenders. Asset forfeiture is a prime example of this in action.

Exactly!

Kind of like this: Jacques: Farmer gets the boot over beliefs

When East Lansing officials told Steve Tennes he was no longer welcome to sell his apples and doughnuts at the city-run farmers market, he couldn’t believe it.
All it took to earn the government’s wrath was penning a social media post about his faith.
Last December, Tennes, who owns the Country Mill Orchard and Cider Mill in Charlotte, wrote a Facebook post explaining his family’s Catholic views on marriage, and how their deeply held beliefs are why his farm won’t host same-sex weddings.

 

[Trigger Time]

So you think it's perfectly acceptable, for a superior to send racially disparaging emails to a new employee, before ever having even met that person? You don't see how that could be construed as intimidation, by essentially saying "we don't want you here," and will be treated in any way they want? Do you not see how if this was something that was ever know publicly, it would detract from the ability of the entire organization to conduct business?

In your context yes I think if it was done intentionaly for the reasons you state then it was wrong. I'm just talking about stuff in jest not actual attempts to hurt individuals.
I've said before that I believe we all have the right to not like groups of people for whatever reason and it's not racists or wrong until you physically or verbally assault that group of people based soley on their skin color or sexual preference ECT.
If I say for example that I don't want to hang out with Arabs, blacks, cookie monsters, because I have my own reasons why i don't like some of them so i choose to not take a.chance then there's nothing wrong with that.
But if you see one of those groups walking down the street and you yell a slur at them or punch them soley for what they are then obviously that is wrong and racist.
If I don't like interracial marriage or gay marriage, ECT, (not saying I do or dobt), there is nothing wrong with me teaching my kids the same way I think. It's not harming anyone else.
If asked about it in an arena that I can discuss it I will share my full opinions on whatever. I think racists and bad people are often afraid to air their true beliefs. Not all but some.

 

[Dddrees]

In your context yes I think if it was done intentionaly for the reasons you state then it was wrong. I'm just talking about stuff in jest not actual attempts to hurt individuals.

Really kind of difficult if not impossible at times to determine actual intent. Best practice just don't do it.

 

[Kutnupe14]

In your context yes I think if it was done intentionaly for the reasons you state then it was wrong. I'm just talking about stuff in jest not actual attempts to hurt individuals.

Yeah, I get that. When there's a relationship present, no harm no foul. LEOs for instance are a pretty rowdy bunch around each other, and typically say things that you don't dare say around other people. Racial, sexual, just about anything is fair game.... among people you know, and understand it's not mean spirited.

 

[Dddrees]

Yeah, I get that. When there's a relationship present, no harm no foul. LEOs for instance are a pretty rowdy bunch around each other, and typically say things that you don't dare say around other people. Racial, sexual, just about anything is fair game.... among people you know, and understand it's not mean spirited.

Mark Furman just came to mind for some reason.

 

[Trigger Time]

Yeah, I get that. When there's a relationship present, no harm no foul. LEOs for instance are a pretty rowdy bunch around each other, and typically say things that you don't dare say around other people. Racial, sexual, just about anything is fair game.... among people you know, and understand it's not mean spirited.

Same with the military and that's what shaped me. You'd die to protect each other so when someone on the outside starts nitpicking your family and how it works you get angry and it's none of their business as long as it doesn't hurt them.
If that supervisor was trying to intimidate you then his peers should have shut that **** down and maybe they did. I don't have any problems if he didn't talk to you or joke with you later on after that though.
If I don't like someone for whatever reason or want to be around them, I don't believe I have to fake it. I just don't interact with them

 

[croy]

Same with the military and that's what shaped me. You'd die to protect each other so when someone on the outside starts nitpicking your family and how it works you get angry and it's none of their business as long as it doesn't hurt them.
If that supervisor was trying to intimidate you then his peers should have shut that **** down and maybe they did. I don't have any problems if he didn't talk to you or joke with you later on after that though.
If I don't like someone for whatever reason or want to be around them, I don't believe I have to fake it. I just don't interact with them

I hate it when you bring those guys along. Always checking there hair...

 

[jamil]

Exactly. Except the firing part. I disagree

I don't know how police departments work. Where I work, a private company, it would depend on the circumstances. If it were exactly as Kut described, a senior person sends a racist joke company wide, that person would likely be fired.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I don't know how police departments work. Where I work, a private company, it would depend on the circumstances. If it were exactly as Kut described, a senior person sends a racist joke company wide, that person would likely be fired.

It wasn't company wide. It came directly to me, and 2 or 3 others; hence why a lot of people to this day don't even know it happened. If it had of gone throughout the department, I suspect that person would have been fired.

 

[jamil]

It wasn't company wide. It came directly to me, and 2 or 3 others; hence why a lot of people to this day don't even know it happened. If it had of gone throughout the department, I suspect that person would have been fired.

That does change things. The sender could be fired for that depending on the circumstances.

 

[Kutnupe14]

That does change things. The sender could be fired for that depending on the circumstances.

if after the dust had settled, I had decided to raise issue with how it was handled, I have no doubt that there would have been several people fired.

 

[Brad69]

I have witnessed careers ended over what seemed to like a harmless joke.
Sometimes because someone overheard it and were offended. I am not a good joke teller and cannot remember them anyway.
Years ago when I was a PFC we had a guy in the Platoon that thought it was funny to run up and smack people in the junk and run off.
We were doing a equipment layout he ran up to hit me in the junk. I cracked him in the hand with a crescent wrench that broke a few fingers problem solved.

 

[Trigger Time]

if after the dust had settled, I had decided to raise issue with how it was handled, I have no doubt that there would have been several people fired.

Well I'm sorry that happened to you. You can rest assured you are the better man

 

[2A_Tom]

Thin blue line Protect officers at any cost.

 

[ghitch75]

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[SheepDog4Life]

It wasn't company wide. It came directly to me, and 2 or 3 others; hence why a lot of people to this day don't even know it happened. If it had of gone throughout the department, I suspect that person would have been fired.

if after the dust had settled, I had decided to raise issue with how it was handled, I have no doubt that there would have been several people fired.

Which raises the question, why did you not file a formal complaint? Were you expecting someone else to do the "dirty" work for you? Did you think the gold badge did not deserve whatever formal punishment he was due by process?

I ask this because as a former manager, I've had people come to me with complaints of harassment only to say "no,no.no, I don't want to be involved or be the cause of him getting in trouble" as soon as I started dialing HR. In those cases, the harassment was verbal conduct so without EVIDENCE, without their statements, it was just a RUMOR that "someone" said such-an-such, there was nothing formal I could do... the only thing I could do, or another manager if he was someone else's responsibility, was to privately rake him over the coals and tell him had the complaint been formal, he'd be out the door. Ditto any retaliation. Thankfully, that always ended the harassment and was normally replaced by distance or a completely "formal" relationship from the accused towards the accuser (similar to what you describe).

I will say that your situation is slightly (or enormously) different if management was given a copy of the email by one of the 3 or 4 recipients. I can say in those few situations I encountered, had I independent evidence, a copy of an email, I would have went forward with or without the "victim's" help or consent. It's both a matter of integrity AND not accepting someone else's "monkey" on my back.

So, it appears that you were relying upon someone else to put integrity over career or "popularity" (someone in management should have stepped up, it's part of accepting the job)... why wasn't that someone you?

 

[Kutnupe14]

Which raises the question, why did you not file a formal complaint? Were you expecting someone else to do the "dirty" work for you? Did you think the gold badge did not deserve whatever formal punishment he was due by process?

I ask this because as a former manager, I've had people come to me with complaints of harassment only to say "no,no.no, I don't want to be involved or be the cause of him getting in trouble" as soon as I started dialing HR. In those cases, the harassment was verbal conduct so without EVIDENCE, without their statements, it was just a RUMOR that "someone" said such-an-such, there was nothing formal I could do... the only thing I could do, or another manager if he was someone else's responsibility, was to privately rake him over the coals and tell him had the complaint been formal, he'd be out the door. Ditto any retaliation. Thankfully, that always ended the harassment and was normally replaced by distance or a completely "formal" relationship from the accused towards the accuser (similar to what you describe).

I will say that your situation is slightly (or enormously) different if management was given a copy of the email by one of the 3 or 4 recipients. I can say in those few situations I encountered, had I independent evidence, a copy of an email, I would have went forward with or without the "victim's" help or consent. It's both a matter of integrity AND not accepting someone else's "monkey" on my back.

So, it appears that you were relying upon someone else to put integrity over career or "popularity" (someone in management should have stepped up, it's part of accepting the job)... why wasn't that someone you?

Did you miss the part about how this occurred during my first week? I wasn't even sure how the complaint process worked, until much later. I handled things exactly as I had been told to do; by following the chain of command. Since I didn't have a shift supervisor, my the hiring supervisor was my direct superior. Once that came to his attention, he was to inform his supervisor, who was to subsequently meet with us both, to see if a formal complaint was requested. Obviously, that was not done.
There was evidence, and it was forwarded to the hiring supervisor at the time, who I had the utmost confidence forward on, as he was supposed to.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Did you miss the part about how this occurred during my first week? I wasn't even sure how the complaint process worked, until much later.

No, I didn't miss that. I don't know how PDs do it, but every company I've ever been involved with hands you an "employee handbook" the first morning you start work and requires you to sign a statement that you will abide by it. That's mostly to ensure that you aren't the one doing "bad" things, but it also includes formal processes if you are the one bringing a complaint.

Which bring the second point, you were passive throughout the process. You did not bring the complaint, a third party you confided in, did. He probably tried to talk you into doing so, but you were unwilling to do so, right? I'm assuming that is the message he conveyed. Did you ever complain to the hiring supervisor, even verbally? Did you provide a copy of the email and cartoon? Or, better yet, FORWARD it so there was a paper trail? Where is the formal complaint to start the formal process? Was this recent enough that everyone signed a privacy release on their work email?

Or, were you all, "Look, I don't want to be 'that 'guy', but I also don't want anymore of these emails."

And, continuing as devil's advocate, you had the least to lose in filing a complaint. You had only been there a week. You also had the most to gain by changing the status quo, since you had just started. There is also a part of me that thinks you "owed" it to others who followed to file a complaint, balanced out by understanding that many people just don't want to be the one to do it, to be the one who steps in front of the "school yard bully". I get it, I understand it, I've seen it many times... and I'm sure you went on many frustrating calls where the people just wanted something to stop, but were not willing to file the formal complaint necessary to do anything other than talk to the neighbor. And, you probably went next door, talked to the neighbor, and that was that unless something else came up.

I handled things exactly as I had been told to do; by following the chain of command. Since I didn't have a shift supervisor, my the hiring supervisor was my direct superior. Once that came to his attention, he was to inform his supervisor, who was to subsequently meet with us both, to see if a formal complaint was requested. Obviously, that was not done.
There was evidence, and it was forwarded to the hiring supervisor at the time, who I had the utmost confidence forward on, as he was supposed to.

As I asked above, did you ever make the informal, verbal complaint to start this process? It is obvious that the chain of command knew about it since the Chief called you in to apologize, but it sounds like the "formal" process was never started... giving them the "loophole" to keep it informal.

And, that is the problem with PDs, schools and other government type organizations. They just don't seem to have the HR department to act as a referee on such infractions. They really don't care how good the employee is, otherwise. They don't have the strong relationship ties and years together "in the trenches" that leads to this type of thing. And, they wouldn't have to fear that "gold badge's friends" would keep me a beat cop for my whole career.

But, even with an HR department involved, if you refused to sign a formal complaint, it would likely be a reprimand and a warning that a repeat or retaliation would be instant firing in the time frame I'm assuming this happened, a decade or two ago. Now, they'd verify the email privacy signature, retrieve the email, call him in and terminate him.

ETA: None of this is meant to say I think this was all ok. It's more about sometimes, for there to be change, YOU need to be the one who uncomfortably forces it to occur. Change doesn't just happen, there is always a YOU who sticks their neck out to make it happen, otherwise, it doesn't.

 

[Kutnupe14]

No, I didn't miss that. I don't know how PDs do it, but every company I've ever been involved with hands you an "employee handbook" the first morning you start work and requires you to sign a statement that you will abide by it. That's mostly to ensure that you aren't the one doing "bad" things, but it also includes formal processes if you are the one bringing a complaint.

Which bring the second point, you were passive throughout the process. You did not bring the complaint, a third party you confided in, did. He probably tried to talk you into doing so, but you were unwilling to do so, right? I'm assuming that is the message he conveyed. Did you ever complain to the hiring supervisor, even verbally? Did you provide a copy of the email and cartoon? Or, better yet, FORWARD it so there was a paper trail? Where is the formal complaint to start the formal process? Was this recent enough that everyone signed a privacy release on their work email?

Or, were you all, "Look, I don't want to be 'that 'guy', but I also don't want anymore of these emails."

And, continuing as devil's advocate, you had the least to lose in filing a complaint. You had only been there a week. You also had the most to gain by changing the status quo, since you had just started. There is also a part of me that thinks you "owed" it to others who followed to file a complaint, balanced out by understanding that many people just don't want to be the one to do it, to be the one who steps in front of the "school yard bully". I get it, I understand it, I've seen it many times... and I'm sure you went on many frustrating calls where the people just wanted something to stop, but were not willing to file the formal complaint necessary to do anything other than talk to the neighbor. And, you probably went next door, talked to the neighbor, and that was that unless something else came up.



As I asked above, did you ever make the informal, verbal complaint to start this process? It is obvious that the chain of command knew about it since the Chief called you in to apologize, but it sounds like the "formal" process was never started... giving them the "loophole" to keep it informal.

And, that is the problem with PDs, schools and other government type organizations. They just don't seem to have the HR department to act as a referee on such infractions. They really don't care how good the employee is, otherwise. They don't have the strong relationship ties and years together "in the trenches" that leads to this type of thing. But, even with an HR department involved, if you refused to sign a formal complaint, it would likely be a reprimand and a warning that a repeat or retaliation would be instant firing in the time frame I'm assuming this happened, a decade or two ago. Now, they'd verify the email privacy signature, retrieve the email, call him in and terminate him.

Yeah, PDs do things quite a bit differently. And the employee handbook or general orders was about 500 pages long. Needless to say it was not signed, nor expected to be, by the end of the first, second, or even the third week. I didn't bring about the complaint, because I was still deciding about what to do with it. Another officer, decided the very next day to say something about it. It wasn't that I was unwilling, I simply wasn't given the time I needed to wrap my head around the situation before someone said something. And when I met with the hiring supervisor, there was no doubt that I wasn't happy. Paper trail you ask? Yes, I forwarded it, not only to myself but to a few others as well.
The PD didn't have the "option" to use a "loophole," as none existed. Allegations of wrongdoing, even if anon or verbal or whatever are to be investigated. If the complainant is known, they are to be notified of the outcome. A signed complained isn't even needed. It is preferred, but not required.

 

[ghitch75]

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