The 2017 General Political discussion thread, Part 2!

[Alpo]

Thanks Alpo...53 years old as of 12:07 am.....Will be enjoying Bourbon, Bluegrass music, and BBQ as is befitting a man of my Scots Irish culture...May even howl at the moon...We are not at the farm so sitting in my underwear on the porch, sipping a bourbon and firing an old single shot sawed off 20 gauge will have to wait until the weekend...

Civilization will be the death of me I swear....

Let's see...where was I on this day in 1964.....

...I'm not sure, but I know that it is likely I was exploring female anatomy on that evening. Pretty sure, actually. That's all I did in the summer of 1964 except do gainers off a diving board. Those were the days.

 

[OakRiver]

CNN says they are middle of the road so as to normalize their radical agenda.

When you plant cameramen in protests to give canned interviews, conspire with a candidate, continue to cover a story you know is a "nothing burger", claim that a violent extremist group is using violence to achieve peace and consider yourself middle of the road I would hate to see what the criteria is for being on the fringes.

 

[Trigger Time]

We should be able to agree on a few things but, as usual, both sides are completely entrenched in their positions. The left wants abortion on demand, anywhere, anytime and under any circumstances. The right wants no abortion, anywhere, anytime or under any circumstances. There is plenty of middle ground and reasonable people should be able to agree.

Late term abortions where a child is born alive and then killed by the physician are abhorrent, inhumane and should be condemned on all sides. But the vitriol surrounding this issue is so overwhelming that there are actually a lot of people that won't even discuss the possibility of doing away with this practice. That does not speak well for our humanity.

Here's what I personally believe and it's one that I don't wish to force anyone to do or believe.
A woman's body is hers and if she chooses to have an abortion then it is her decision to make EXCEPT for late term abortion. I don't think it should be legal at that point.
I don't think abortion is right myself but it's not my body or choice.
Just like I believe doctor assisted suicide FOR ANY REASON should be legal. If you want to check out then it's your right.
I wish government and it's citizens would stop trying to force religious and moral or personal beliefs on others. This is the one main thing that most conservatives are wrong about.

 

[Dddrees]

Here's what I personally believe and it's one that I don't wish to force anyone to do or believe.
A woman's body is hers and if she chooses to have an abortion then it is her decision to make EXCEPT for late term abortion. I don't think it should be legal at that point.
I don't think abortion is right myself but it's not my body or choice.
Just like I believe doctor assisted suicide FOR ANY REASON should be legal. If you want to check out then it's your right.
I wish government and it's citizens would stop trying to force religious and moral or personal beliefs on others. This is the one main thing that most conservatives are wrong about.

We actually agree on something.

 

[Trigger Time]

We actually agree on something.

Maybe I'll change my position then

 

[Dddrees]

Maybe I'll change my position then

Now that's more what I expected. LOL

 

[indiucky]

Ah well I just find those overwhelming righteous who are so willing to impose their lives and choices on others to be a bit much.

As I find those that wish to impose a death sentence on an child based on the child's geographic location...

Outside??? MURDER!!!!!! Inside???? CHOICE!!!!!!

 

[2A_Tom]

As I find those that wish to impose a death sentence on an child based on the child's geographic location...

Outside??? MURDER!!!!!! Inside???? CHOICE!!!!!!

AH, but there is diacussion that it may be the mother's choice up to one year old.

 

[Dddrees]

As I find those that wish to impose a death sentence on an child based on the child's geographic location...

Outside??? MURDER!!!!!! Inside???? CHOICE!!!!!!

Yeah and things like this as Prohibition did, just work so well.

But like I said we're just so righteous we just have to, have to impose that on others.

 

[indiucky]

Yeah and things like this as Prohibition did, just work so well.

But like I said we're just so righteous we just have to, have to impose that on others.

Oh yeah....Peas in a pod those two issues are....

Here's a radical idea....Let the child live and when they turn 21 they can choose to have a drink?????

 

[Dddrees]

Oh yeah....Peas in a pod those two issues are....

They both go to a question of morality and how one chooses to live their lives. If you don't believe so then you might want to revisit the arguments of that day and how and what those leading the prohibition arguement said at the time.

 

[JettaKnight]

I don't think so. If nothing else a woman who finds herself in an unwanted pregnancy situation probably finds any questions and discussions about it very uncomfortable to say the least. She probably isn't celebrating the fact other people want to either talk about it or feel her belly.

So now your argument for abortion is to avoid four months where there might be awkward questions? Really?

Costs whether in dollars or cents or in social costs are real. Frankly if you are willing to pay the actual cost that is one thing. Really, really do you believe there are enough people willing to take on the responsibility of trying to take on the social responsibility as well? Have the Big Brothers and Big Sisters gotten to the point they have so many volunteers they can no longer use the overwhelming support that is racing to their door?

Are prospective parents fighting to adopt children or are adoption agencies working on big marketing campaigns?




You're arguments could work well for stealing, too.
"There's a social stigma with wearing used clothes, so people should be allowed to shoplift at Macy's."

"Food pantries aren't turning away food, so people should be allowed to bypass the checkout line."

 

[Birds Away]

They both go to a question of morality and how one chooses to live their lives. If you don't believe so then you might want to revisit the arguments of that day and how and what those leading the prohibition arguement said at the time.

While you're back there ask them about a woman murdering her own child. They would have locked you away in an asylum and thrown away the key.

 

[indiucky]

They both go to a question of morality and how one chooses to live their lives. If you don't believe so then you might want to revisit the arguments of that day and how and what those leading the prohibition arguement said at the time.

Wow let's try again...One of them is liquor and the other is an innocent human being...Does that help????

 

[Dddrees]

So now your argument for abortion is to avoid four months where there might be awkward questions? Really?


Are prospective parents fighting to adopt children or are adoption agencies working on big marketing campaigns?




You're arguments could work well for stealing, too.
"There's a social stigma with wearing used clothes, so people should be allowed to shoplift at Macy's."

"Food pantries aren't turning away food, so people should be allowed to bypass the checkout line."

No it's not my complete arguement. I think however there is a stigma that some women feel when being pregnant. Especially when it comes to an unwanted pregnancy. They don't want to have to answer the questions that will invariably be a part of the normal discussion.

Frankly I don't know what the statistics of adoptions are or are not. However it seems to me that since there is a great demand for babies there still must be reasons people chose abortion over giving their child up for adoption. I imagine whatever these reasons are they won't magically go away if you make abortions illegal. In fact if you were to make abortions illegal and somehow made it such women didn't still chose to do it illegal there would be no way that enough people wishing to adopt would magically appear. Yes maybe we no longer would have to go abroad but I imagine there would be a flood such not all these unwanted would be wanted. Race, creed, and other elements would still play a part here. But I think the overall numbers would simply overwhelm us if for some reason we could ever eliminate abortions. But the fact is there is no way you would be able to eliminate it.

 

[Dddrees]

Wow let's try again...One of them is liquor and the other is an innocent human being...Does that help????

I know what they are and I know very well what the differences are.

Go back, feel free, take a look at the arguments at that time.

 

[Dddrees]

Now we might be able to agree in part to the following. Why don't we instead focus on the reason adoptions aren't the first choice? Why don't we look at our adoption agencies and those who tend to chose abortion over adoption and see if we can't make adoptions their first choice?

 

[SheepDog4Life]

The bringing up of Margret Sanger, wanting to wage genocide against minorities as an argument against PP, has always been a non-starter for me. Regardless if she was racist or not, how effective has her "plan" been? Yeah, not very. Nowadays PP is killing almost as many whites as Blacks. Have you seen the demographic projections for the United States in the next few decades? If you take that into account, it would seem her plan has thoroughly backfired. PP is really going to need to crank it up if they plan on offsetting what seems like the inevitable. How about you just focus on opposing abortions for all people, rather than citing specific groups?

Here are the abortion numbers from CDC:

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/65/ss/ss6512a1.htm#T1_down

Abortion rates have been slowly decreasing across the boards for at least the past decade, likely due to the "morning after" pill. For 2013, it reported 664,435 abortions, but that excluded California, Maryland and New Hampshire, which did not report. (CA stopped reporting to the CDC after 2003). Adjusting for those populations, the number easily exceeds 750,000 abortions per year, about 1/2 performed by PP.

Only about half (27) of the states report race/ethnicity. Of those that did, non-hispanic (NH) white women had the largest share of abortions (37.3%) followed closely by NH black women (35.6%). This means that the abortion rate for NH black women (420/1000) was 3 1/2 times the rate for NH white women (112/1000). The report, in noting falling rates, states that in 2007 the rate for NH black women was 514/1000... a black baby was more likely to be aborted than born.

And, if I had to guess, I would guess that the "bluer" the state, the less likely is would be to report race/ethnicity because none of the abortion statistics "help" the pro-abortion argument. Since the blue states have higher percentages of black populations, I would guess the "real" numbers are even worse. Abortion is pretty selective by race, by a factor of 3.5x, minimum.

ETA: That per capita factor is roughly TWICE the ratio of unarmed blacks vs unarmed whites killed by police last year. Rather than being near equal in raw numbers, like abortion, more than twice (2.26x) as many unarmed whites (95) were killed by police as unarmed blacks (42).

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...un/01/the-counted-police-killings-us-database

Math: 35.6% of 750k is 267,000 non-hispanic black babies aborted in 2013. Prior to 2013, it was more per year.

 

[PaulF]

As I find those that wish to impose a death sentence on an child based on the child's geographic location...

Outside??? MURDER!!!!!! Inside???? CHOICE!!!!!!

Perhaps it's because that argument is a strawman.

To be consistent with the actual argument, you'd have to say something like:

Inside??? Justifiable.
Outside??? Not justifiable.

Doesn't have the same rhetorical ring to it, though, does it?

Abortion isn't murder just because you say it is, and there is no chance at a genuine consensus there...at least not in this political climate. What if I told you I found the practice of abortion personally repugnant? Would you be surprised by that? I think abortion is risky to a person's health and well-being, and preventing a pregnancy is far preferable to ending one. What if I told you I wanted there to be as few abortions as possible? Do you find that to be inconsistent with my (repeatedly) stated positions on the topic?

There is a thriving black market for drugs because there is a voracious demand. The cartels would crumble overnight if they couldn't find a buyer for their product. I think the same is true for abortion: any lasting change must, necessarily, be demand-driven. How do you stop women from wanting to end their pregnancies?

I think that question strikes to the heart of the matter, and I cannot imagine a scenario where an application of State Authority provides a favorable solution. removing a woman's choice in the decision will only drive an abortion black market. Women will die, no hyperbole. There is ample evidence that comprehensive sex education and easy access to effective birth control lower the total number of abortions sought in any given population. Republicans fight these measures at every turn. Why?

Abortion remains legal here (along with the rest of the civilized world) because it must be, abortion is something criminalization cannot quell.

That doesn't mean there need to be as many, or for as arbitrary a reason...I think that can be changed with education and access to quality healthcare, demand-side.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Perhaps it's because that argument is a strawman.

To be consistent with the actual argument, you'd have to say something like:

Inside??? Justifiable.
Outside??? Not justifiable.

Doesn't have the same rhetorical ring to it, though, does it?

Abortion isn't murder just because you say it is, and there is no chance at a genuine consensus there...at least not in this political climate. What if I told you I found the practice of abortion personally repugnant? Would you be surprised by that? I think abortion is risky to a person's health and well-being, and preventing a pregnancy is far preferable to ending one. What if I told you I wanted there to be as few abortions as possible? Do you find that to be inconsistent with my (repeatedly) stated positions on the topic?

There is a thriving black market for drugs because there is a voracious demand. The cartels would crumble overnight if they couldn't find a buyer for their product. I think the same is true for abortion: any lasting change must, necessarily, be demand-driven. How do you stop women from wanting to end their pregnancies?

I think that question strikes to the heart of the matter, and I cannot imagine a scenario where an application of State Authority provides a favorable solution. removing a woman's choice in the decision will only drive an abortion black market. Women will die, no hyperbole. There is ample evidence that comprehensive sex education and easy access to effective birth control lower the total number of abortions sought in any given population. Republicans fight these measures at every turn. Why?

Abortion remains legal here (along with the rest of the civilized world) because it must be, abortion is something criminalization cannot quell.

That doesn't mean there need to be as many, or for as arbitrary a reason...I think that can be changed with education and access to quality healthcare, demand-side.

"Want" is a bad choice of words... I think this quote is, in general, very true:

"No woman wants an abortion as she wants an ice cream cone or a Porsche. She wants an abortion as an animal caught in a trap wants to gnaw off its own leg."

Also, I would like to see if there are poll numbers on whether most people think aborting a "viable" fetus (after the 5-6 month mark) is "ending a human life" or "removing unwanted tissue". I think by the time the fetus is viable, most people see this differently than after missing a period or two.