Surrounded by cops today

[Pull Trigger Goes Bang]

Does the presence of a LTCH mean you haven't stolen the handgun? NO!

What does this have to do with the OP's situation? What facts could the responding officers possibly encountered to give them reasonable articulable suspicion that the OP was in possession of a stolen gun? The 911 call, bogus as it was, was about a robbery, not someone selling questionable guns in the parking lot.

Cops prolong traffic stops and investigatory stops every day checking serial numbers on guns when they don't have a single fact they could cite suggesting that the crime of possession of stolen property is afoot.

Suppose the OP's gun was, say, a 1911 with pearl grips and the cop had heard that a 1911 with pearl grips had recently been stolen from a nearby home. OK, now there may be reasonable suspicion to detain the OP and his gun for a little longer while he checks it for stolen. I doubt the situation was like that. This was just procedure ... generalized suspicion of every gun and every gun possessor the cop encounters. That's a constitutional no-no.

Someone should challenge this kind of thing in court.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

Here's an exchange that's worked pretty well for me in the past.

LEO: Hello, do you know why I stopped you?
Me: No.
LEO: Do you have any weapons in the car?
Me: Yes.
LEO: Where are they?
Me: Not within reaching distance to qualify for search under a Terry stop.
LEO: I want to see it.
Me: I'm sorry, I can't reach it.
LEO: Tell me where it is.
Me: It is not within reaching distance to qualify for search under a Terry stop.

Informs the officer you have a weapon, that it is not within reach, and that you have an understanding of the law around stop and search of vehicles. Most officers know what Terry stop means.

Some guys will be content there, others may get testy. If you are removed from the vehicle, the vehicle can't be searched for weapons (recent Indiana case law) under the guise of officer safety.

The officer may tell you to keep your hands up on the dash or steering wheel, or may even cuff you to the wheel (I've seen this done before). But if you hold ground without being beligerent and using the words violating and rights in the same sentence, it should work out OK.

One more thing. Almost everyone has a voice or video capable cell phone today. Learn to quickly start the voice recorder / video camera on your phone. If stopped by an officer, start the recording immediately and put your phone somewhere that it will pick up the conversation. You are being recorded, there's no reason not to record the officer. I was an LEO and I never did or said anything that I was afraid would be played back to my grandmother. Good guys won't care, and bad guys are the ones you need the recording for.

I did this very thing where an officer attempted to intimidate me into making an incriminating statement. No one took my complaint seriously until I sent a copy of the video to the chief and city attorney along with an intent to file suit letter. Don't know where that former officer is now, but I know he doesn't work in that department anymore. I got an apology and never pressed it. Show proof rather than bluster and people will begin to see things your way.

 

[E5RANGER375]

^^ very good post!! I cant rep you again so soon

 

[public servant]

Just sayin'...

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

Just sayin'...

Sorry, I'm stupid. Just sayin' what?

 

[public servant]

Sorry, I'm stupid. Just sayin' what?

I'm sorry. I should have expanded. Some folks wonder why people don't like things shoved in their face. While I'm sure there has been *at least* one LEO who didn't want a video phone shoved in his because he was wrong in his actions....this may explain why others don't.

 

[dross]

Actually one of the evil things I liked to do when I was a LEO was when we had a ranting drunk that was under arrest and trying to say that one of his rights was being violated but couldn't think of which one was to suggest the third.

Drunk: "You guys are in trouble you violated, you violated my..."
Me: "You're probably thinking of your third amendment rights."
Drunk: "That's right! You violated my third amendment rights! You guys are gonna get sued!"

Never failed to entertain me.

You can't blame the guy for being mad if you were making him let soldiers live in his house against his will. I would have been mad too.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

I'm sorry. I should have expanded. Some folks wonder why people don't like things shoved in their face. While I'm sure there has been *at least* one LEO who didn't want a video phone shoved in his because he was wrong in his actions....this may explain why others don't.

Gotcha. I absolutely agree, I wouldn't advocate putting anything in anyone's face. The idea's to get a record of events, not threaten anyone. Just turn the camera / recorder on and put it on the dashboard or in the console or somewhere. No need to touch it, disclose it, etc. If you have Bluetooth you can pick up the conversation even if removed from the vehicle without touching the phone.

 

[public servant]

Gotcha. I absolutely agree, I wouldn't advocate putting anything in anyone's face. The idea's to get a record of events, not threaten anyone. Just turn the camera / recorder on and put it on the dashboard or in the console or somewhere. No need to touch it, disclose it, etc. If you have Bluetooth you can pick up the conversation even if removed from the vehicle without touching the phone.

Sorry I can't rep you.

 

[dross]

It's not really that I'm afraid to get them dirty, I just don't...prefer it. Ooooh, yucky.

 

[PatriotPride]

^^ very good post!! I cant rep you again so soon

Likewise! Excellent post!

 

[djl02]

Here's an exchange that's worked pretty well for me in the past.

LEO: Hello, do you know why I stopped you?
Me: No.
LEO: Do you have any weapons in the car?
Me: Yes.
LEO: Where are they?
Me: Not within reaching distance to qualify for search under a Terry stop.
LEO: I want to see it.
Me: I'm sorry, I can't reach it.
LEO: Tell me where it is.
Me: It is not within reaching distance to qualify for search under a Terry stop.

Informs the officer you have a weapon, that it is not within reach, and that you have an understanding of the law around stop and search of vehicles. Most officers know what Terry stop means.

Some guys will be content there, others may get testy. If you are removed from the vehicle, the vehicle can't be searched for weapons (recent Indiana case law) under the guise of officer safety.

The officer may tell you to keep your hands up on the dash or steering wheel, or may even cuff you to the wheel (I've seen this done before). But if you hold ground without being beligerent and using the words violating and rights in the same sentence, it should work out OK.

One more thing. Almost everyone has a voice or video capable cell phone today. Learn to quickly start the voice recorder / video camera on your phone. If stopped by an officer, start the recording immediately and put your phone somewhere that it will pick up the conversation. You are being recorded, there's no reason not to record the officer. I was an LEO and I never did or said anything that I was afraid would be played back to my grandmother. Good guys won't care, and bad guys are the ones you need the recording for.

I did this very thing where an officer attempted to intimidate me into making an incriminating statement. No one took my complaint seriously until I sent a copy of the video to the chief and city attorney along with an intent to file suit letter. Don't know where that former officer is now, but I know he doesn't work in that department anymore. I got an apology and never pressed it. Show proof rather than bluster and people will begin to see things your way.

Ky police told me anywhere inside the vehicle was in reach. Most know what you mean though. I havent had any problems in Indiana.

 

[E5RANGER375]

I'm sorry. I should have expanded. Some folks wonder why people don't like things shoved in their face. While I'm sure there has been *at least* one LEO who didn't want a video phone shoved in his because he was wrong in his actions....this may explain why others don't.

but honestly where does the paranoya end? some cars have flame throwers on the sides too, so is it right for a cop to crawl on the roof of my car and talk to me through my sunroof for his safety because SOME cars have flamethrowers? im not calling you crazy, but some cops are. also a lot use lame excuses to gain illegal access. and a lot of citizens dont know their rights or dont care and just give them away.

 

[Hammerhead]

Problem with that too, is that I OC and don't remove it from my hip when I'm driving. And I don't have T-rex arms.

I do however carry around my Flip Mino camera, although I've got to figure out a good hands free carry for when I'm out and about. I don't normally wear shirts with a pocket. I'm also going to have to start carrying the bendy legged table top tripod with me too so that I can set it up on my dash should I ever get pulled over.

Then again, I don't usually give the police a reason to pull me over.

 

[Joe Williams]

but honestly where does the paranoya end? some cars have flame throwers on the sides too, so is it right for a cop to crawl on the roof of my car and talk to me through my sunroof for his safety because SOME cars have flamethrowers? im not calling you crazy, but some cops are. also a lot use lame excuses to gain illegal access. and a lot of citizens dont know their rights or dont care and just give them away.

Mustn't forget pens, pencils, umbrellas, cigarettes, cigarette packs, soda cans, cans of shaving cream, flashlights, cigars, etc. All can be, and have been, used to fashion weapons or conceal explosives. A citizen smoking a cigarette could, in reality, be drawing down on someone!!

 

[Joe Williams]

Problem with that too, is that I OC and don't remove it from my hip when I'm driving. And I don't have T-rex arms.

I do however carry around my Flip Mino camera, although I've got to figure out a good hands free carry for when I'm out and about. I don't normally wear shirts with a pocket. I'm also going to have to start carrying the bendy legged table top tripod with me too so that I can set it up on my dash should I ever get pulled over.

Then again, I don't usually give the police a reason to pull me over.

Don't set it up where it can be seen.

 

[Eddie]

Mustn't forget pens, pencils, umbrellas, cigarettes, cigarette packs, soda cans, cans of shaving cream, flashlights, cigars, etc. All can be, and have been, used to fashion weapons or conceal explosives. A citizen smoking a cigarette could, in reality, be drawing down on someone!!

Exactly. This is where there is a logical disconnect. Just because something happened a different time to somebody else that doesn't create evidence in a totally unrelated case. "Articulable Circumstances" means connecting different pieces of information in a way that makes the judge or jury understand that something illegal was occuring. Hearing the sound of a drill and finding a guy repairing a light doesn't create evidence just because the repairman might have stolen a van. If the steering column on the van was broken open then there might be enough to justify investigating further.

I'm all about officer safety and getting bad guys off the street but there still has to be something to justify the investigation and some point where if the police determine that no crime has been committed that the citizen gets treated like a citizen.

 

[Hammerhead]

Don't set it up where it can be seen.

Why?

If I can be recorded, which everyone seems to be when they're pulled over now, I can record them without being subversive.

Generally, however, when I'm driving, I'm not in a car alone.

But to use a phrase oft spoken by the police, "What do they have to hide?"

 

[E5RANGER375]

Exactly. This is where there is a logical disconnect. Just because something happened a different time to somebody else that doesn't create evidence in a totally unrelated case. "Articulable Circumstances" means connecting different pieces of information in a way that makes the judge or jury understand that something illegal was occuring. Hearing the sound of a drill and finding a guy repairing a light doesn't create evidence just because the repairman might have stolen a van. If the steering column on the van was broken open then there might be enough to justify investigating further.

I'm all about officer safety and getting bad guys off the street but there still has to be something to justify the investigation and some point where if the police determine that no crime has been committed that the citizen gets treated like a citizen.

sadly until the modern police learn their place then its not gonna happen.

the people are too much pansys to stand up and say enough. the people have the power and the police are the ones who need to cross their t's and dot the i's. a cop just walking up to me and thinking he can do whatever is the wrong attitude for him to have. I will be happy to adjust it in court.

 

[serpicostraight]

Why?

If I can be recorded, which everyone seems to be when they're pulled over now, I can record them without being subversive.

Generally, however, when I'm driving, I'm not in a car alone.

But to use a phrase oft spoken by the police, "What do they have to hide?"

you will find very few leo that will let you get them on tape. if they notice you are recording they will probably order you to stop at the least and you could end up in jail on a bs charge.Photography is Not a Crime — It’s a First Amendment Right