Surrounded by cops today

[serpicostraight]

mp179 how do you figure being a cop is dangerous? im a truckdriver and i just looked up the stats for truckers its 21 out of every 100,000 that die for cops its 16. that would make my job more dangerous than yours and i dont have backup every time i go to get a load. so yes there are a lot of spineless cops out there now. and like ranger said i think it is a case of little man syndrome. i have had several encounters with le over the years and theres also no shortage of leo that will violate your rights and the law anytime they see fit. this whole officer safety thing is a way to put scared people on the force and scared people should be librarians not cops.

 

[dross]

A lot could be said after reading through all these pages. Most will criticize the police regardless of the outcome or how they respond to various situations.

snip

AirbornePFC please do a ride along with an LEO agency prior to writing your article so you have personal experience in the shoes of the LEO community. Perferablly, with an active agency that has a high call volume. But be careful .... thats how i got sucked into the job!

Why don't you handcuff everyone you speak to throughout the day for your safety? As far as you know, every person you stop, or speak to on the street, or walk by, is armed.

You stop a guy and he tells you he's armed. Why would you treat him differently? He TOLD you he was armed when he didn't have to . How is he more dangerous than the guy you stopped ten minutes ago that didn't tell you he was armed?

When you pull a car over and a guy says he's an off duty cop, do you ask him if he is armed? Take his weapon?

 

[Bunnykid68]

In response to the being disarmed when pulled over. If you ever have a police officer want to come on your property or come in your house, ask them to leave their firearm in their vehicle because it makes you feel unsafe, tell them you are armed and will protect them while visiting your abode.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Yes, here's one:

"Standard Operating Procedure PTL-026: Firearms Seized for Safekeeping:

Generally, property can only be seized/confiscated as evidence of a crime or other investigation. However, it is the policy of this department to seize weapons for safekeeping if there is such imminent danger that the weapons must be seized to avoid harm. Weapons shall NOT be returned to the owner without an order from the court."


Never mind what the law is, it is THEIR policy to do what they want until the court forces them to cease. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. You're NOT taking any firearm from me based off of that SOP. It's as simple as that.

Actually their policy is in line with IN code.

IC 35-47-14-3
Warrantless seizure of firearm from individual believed to be dangerous
Sec. 3. (a) If a law enforcement officer seizes a firearm from an individual whom the law enforcement officer believes to be dangerous without obtaining a warrant, the law enforcement officer shall submit to the circuit or superior court having jurisdiction over the individual believed to be dangerous a written statement under oath or affirmation describing the basis for the law enforcement officer's belief that the individual is dangerous.
(b) The court shall review the written statement submitted under subsection (a). If the court finds that probable cause exists to believe that the individual is dangerous, the court shall order the law enforcement agency having custody of the firearm to retain the firearm. If the court finds that there is no probable cause to believe that the individual is dangerous, the court shall order the law enforcement agency having custody of the firearm to return the firearm to the individual.
(c) This section does not authorize a law enforcement officer to perform a warrantless search or seizure if a warrant would otherwise be required.
As added by P.L.1-2006, SEC.537.

 

[Eddie]

The police do not have a crystal ball that says your a good guy or how their given situation will turn out.

I have seen this idea posted throughout this thread; that somehow the idea that a LEO does not know whether a person is a good guy or a bad guy somehow gives them more power or the citizen less rights. The police do not have the power to detain everyone they see. There has to be reasonable suspicion that a crime is occurring.

In the OP, the caller allegedly reported hearing the sound of a drill and equated hearing the sound of a drill with believing that they were being robbed. The police came to investigate and located a man using a drill to repair a light.

Reasonable Suspicion means taking specific and articulable facts and making reasonable inferences from those facts to form a belief that a person is in the process of or about to commit a crime.

I'm just not seeing that in the OP. I think that had the cops found some evidence of a crime that it would ultimately have been thrown out based on a lack reasonable suspicion to stop the repairman. In other words, no reasonable person, upon seeing/hearing that fact pattern would believe that a crime was occuring.

 

[Eddie]

Actually their policy is in line with IN code.

I would say maybe, so long as they are using the same definition of dangerous that the I.C. uses:

IC 35-47-14-1
"Dangerous"
Sec. 1. (a) For the purposes of this chapter, an individual is "dangerous" if:
(1) the individual presents an imminent risk of personal injury to the individual or to another individual; or
(2) the individual may present a risk of personal injury to the individual or to another individual in the future and the individual:
(A) has a mental illness (as defined in IC 12-7-2-130) that may be controlled by medication, and has not demonstrated a pattern of voluntarily and consistently taking the individual's medication while not under supervision; or
(B) is the subject of documented evidence that would give rise to a reasonable belief that the individual has a propensity for violent or emotionally unstable conduct.
(b) The fact that an individual has been released from a mental health facility or has a mental illness that is currently controlled by medication does not establish that the individual is dangerous for the purposes of this chapter.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

I would say maybe, so long as they are using the same definition of dangerous that the I.C. uses:

IC 35-47-14-1
"Dangerous"
Sec. 1. (a) For the purposes of this chapter, an individual is "dangerous" if:
(1) the individual presents an imminent risk of personal injury to the individual or to another individual; or
(2) the individual may present a risk of personal injury to the individual or to another individual in the future and the individual:
(A) has a mental illness (as defined in IC 12-7-2-130) that may be controlled by medication, and has not demonstrated a pattern of voluntarily and consistently taking the individual's medication while not under supervision; or
(B) is the subject of documented evidence that would give rise to a reasonable belief that the individual has a propensity for violent or emotionally unstable conduct.
(b) The fact that an individual has been released from a mental health facility or has a mental illness that is currently controlled by medication does not establish that the individual is dangerous for the purposes of this chapter.

I agree, I should of said seems to be.

 

[Eddie]

I agree, I should of said seems to be.

What I thought when I read the policy was that a bad cop could seize a firearm and just write up an affidavit that says "I took the gun cause guns are dangerous." and then the citizen is stuck waiting on a court order to get their weapon back. But maybe I'm just evil, who knows.

 

[MinuteMan47]

But maybe I'm just evil, who knows.

 

[PatriotPride]

What I thought when I read the policy was that a bad cop could seize a firearm and just write up an affidavit that says "I took the gun cause guns are dangerous." and then the citizen is stuck waiting on a court order to get their weapon back. But maybe I'm just evil, who knows.

That's my opinion as well. The SOP grants too broad a power, and does not cite the IC as it's constraint.

 

[MPD179]

I have family and best freinds who are cops at rankings from the top to the bottom, so I think I understand it pretty well. and thats what has helped me form a lot of my opinions about LE and decide not to pursue a career in it.

*** Ranger most of your opinions concerning LEO's are from your family and friends involved in the LEO community? I will admit I have seen a few bad apples over the years but nothing like you make it out to be. ***

If me being silent scares a cop then they are the biggest P***y I have ever met. Its my right to remain silent at ANY point in their investigation, and If they dont like those rights then tough s***. would you rather i start bouncing around or figiting with my pants or rubbing my teeth?

*** Again, it's not the cop being the biggest Pu$ because you want to stay silent. I mean he would be there dealing with you right? Be silent all you want.... just know it is the same reaction we face when dealing with a bg and it could esculate from there, depending on the officers training & experience. It sounds more like you want to thump on your chest more so than help the LEO resolve situation. ***

cop dont want us to treat their Un-convicted drunk cop buddies like criminals, so why is it any different when you roll up one of us civilians?

*** have a story to share or did I miss this in the post somewhere?***

Sacrifices, bla bla bla. Ive made sacrifices too and still do and im no cop nor would i EVER wanna be one. Now i just "sacrifice" for a paycheck like a cop does. I wear a vest and carry a lot bigger guns than you do to work, and I will bet you money I've been shot at in my job more times, but thats what i get paid for. A job is a job, and you know the risk before you take it. dont take it and then come looking for a pitty party because your scared of what might happen at work.

*** not looking for a pitty party but as I have said in past posts, I personally know of two guys I worked & went to the academy with that lost their lives by gunfire. One was checking on a stranded motorist the other was chasing a guy on foot. Those were sacrifices! Doing their jobs! No bla, bla, bla! We are both still here alive and well and yup we know the risk! Oh... I have some pretty big guns I carry too ***

I do it for the money now and im not gonna say its for anything else. a lot of cops are no different, its for the money. theres nothing to be ashamed of for admitting it. everyone needs money to live. just dont pretend its for more when its not. sure theres emotional attachments at any career, but the main reason is usualy all the same .... money

*** I don't do the job for the money... yes, I am paid, but 46k year isn't living high on the hog. I live within my means but I do it (job) because I enjoy it. ***

 

[Compatriot G]

"*** Again, it's not the cop being the biggest Pu$ because you want to stay silent. I mean he would be there dealing with you right? Be silent all you want.... just know it is the same reaction we face when dealing with a bg and it could esculate from there, depending on the officers training & experience. It sounds more like you want to thump on your chest more so than help the LEO resolve situation. ***"

So, just because a "bad guy" exercises his right to remain silent, then it is wrong for everybody else to remain silent? This sounds a lot like the excuses I hear for gun control, "Well bad guys have guns, so we should prevent everybody from having guns."

 

[Hornett]

MPD170 admitted that my confessing to having a gun WILL lead to that gun being taken away and my being detained.
So, as I have said before...
The very instant that any question about having a weapon enters the conversation, that is my cue to start exercising my rights, because I am certain, at that point, that I am going to be detained and umarmed no matter what I say or if I have a license or not.
Refusal to cooperate is a logical result of that kind of SOP.

Just sayin'...

I think I will repost myself here for the thread noobs

Now lets be realistic. You, as an officer responding to a robbery call, find a guy with a jillion dollar truck, loaded with electrical equipment, holding a drill driver, with a new light laying on the ground at his feet, and the old light laying next to it, producing an ID and an LTCH and you're first thought is that he is impersonating a repair man to rob a Check Into Cash store? Really?? Serious?? Was he wearing a stocking over his head? It's glance and go time, people. Tell the repairman there was a call about a robbery and be on your way. It is very difficult to believe that his was not about him possessing a gun.

Wait, it makes sense now.
You must assume that the robber killed the real repairman, stashed the body, and assumed his identity to escape capture. I think the cops made a serious mistake by not swabbing the 'supposed' repairman for GSR and not blacklighting him for blood splatter on his clothes.
Too much TV man...

 

[downzero]

"*** Again, it's not the cop being the biggest Pu$ because you want to stay silent. I mean he would be there dealing with you right? Be silent all you want.... just know it is the same reaction we face when dealing with a bg and it could esculate from there, depending on the officers training & experience. It sounds more like you want to thump on your chest more so than help the LEO resolve situation. ***"

So, just because a "bad guy" exercises his right to remain silent, then it is wrong for everybody else to remain silent? This sounds a lot like the excuses I hear for gun control, "Well bad guys have guns, so we should prevent everybody from having guns."

Sorry, but I don't believe that for a minute. Bad guys are stupid. They confess every day, and to all kinds of things. It's part of human nature--we want to tell our story.

It takes the utmost restraint to shut up and assert one's rights. To suggest that asserting a 5th amendment right to remain silent makes one guilty is absurd. One of the basic reasons for the right is to protect the innocent so that they can tell the facts one time and without inconsistency for the jury. The person can't do that if they speak beforehand.

 

[USMC_0311]

*** I don't do the job for the money... yes, I am paid, but 46k year isn't living high on the hog. I live within my means but I do it (job) because I enjoy it. ***

What part do you like the most?

 

[MPD179]

What part do you like the most?

I enjoy being outdoors, free to roam, interacting with different people, making good arrests & a feeling of accomplishment. The different and various calls that are funny and serious. This job is the ticket to the greatest show on earth! The unknowing of what lays ahead. I use to work in the steel mill and after doing ride alongs with LEO friends of mine I knew it was for me. The money isn't good, it was A LOT better in the mill, but I have accepted the fact ill never be rich and would rather enjoy what I do.

 

[E5RANGER375]

"*** Again, it's not the cop being the biggest Pu$ because you want to stay silent. I mean he would be there dealing with you right? Be silent all you want.... just know it is the same reaction we face when dealing with a bg and it could esculate from there, depending on the officers training & experience. It sounds more like you want to thump on your chest more so than help the LEO resolve situation. ***"

So, just because a "bad guy" exercises his right to remain silent, then it is wrong for everybody else to remain silent? This sounds a lot like the excuses I hear for gun control, "Well bad guys have guns, so we should prevent everybody from having guns."

i dont know how you think a person being silent is beating their chest?

Its better than them beating the cops chest right?

I think cops are the biggest comspiracy theorist in the world. every body is an axe murderer. I dont know how they walk down the street at night or during the day. man their job is soooo dangerous .

 

[E5RANGER375]

*** I don't do the job for the money... yes, I am paid, but 46k year isn't living high on the hog. I live within my means but I do it (job) because I enjoy it. ***

oh, well im glad you can scrape by on $46,000 a year. I know people who live on half that a year. your wife probly works too? or are you single? thats a VERY good living in the U.S. right now, plus you have job security. I DEFFINATLY think public servants should make more (firefighters more than cops) but i dont feel the least bit sorry for a cop that says $46K a year isnt living high on the hog. maybe your living beyond your means?

I am glad you enjoy your job.

 

[dross]

I enjoy being outdoors, free to roam, interacting with different people, making good arrests & a feeling of accomplishment. The different and various calls that are funny and serious. This job is the ticket to the greatest show on earth! The unknowing of what lays ahead. I use to work in the steel mill and after doing ride alongs with LEO friends of mine I knew it was for me. The money isn't good, it was A LOT better in the mill, but I have accepted the fact ill never be rich and would rather enjoy what I do.

How long have you been a cop?

 

[Joe Williams]

oh, well im glad you can scrape by on $46,000 a year. I know people who live on half that a year. your wife probly works too? or are you single? thats a VERY good living in the U.S. right now, plus you have job security. I DEFFINATLY think public servants should make more (firefighters more than cops) but i dont feel the least bit sorry for a cop that says $46K a year isnt living high on the hog. maybe your living beyond your means?

I am glad you enjoy your job.

The difference between that $46K and what my wife and I combined are bringing in right now is almost equal to one of our paychecks LOL. I wouldn't mind seeing that much money again! If one of us made that much, the other could stay home, run the household, and still have a chunk of change left over.