Surrounded by cops today

[ihateiraq]

I always try to put myself in the officers shoes, and frankly I think, with my current mindset and training I'd probably act like they do. I'd operate under the assumption that you are a criminal until proven otherwise, for no other reason than I would want to come home to my family every night.

These officers need to be called on the carpet and trained better. I just find it hard to judge their actions when I know I'd probably react the same way.

you just need to learn how to flip the switch. i heard a story about a marine lt that put it best. no better friend, no worse enemy, or some such.

ive modified the golden rule to treat others how they treat me. i wouldnt respond to someone cussing me up one side and down the other with sirs and maams, but at the same time i wouldnt go out of my way to be a prick to someone who was being straightforward and easygoing with me. im not a cop, but i apply the same school of thought to inmates.

 

[PatriotPride]

And once again the real issues at hand are ignored...

How exactly does an officer protect your freedoms when responding to a robbery or "man with a gun" call made on you?

By adhering to the laws that the officers are supposedly here to protect. By not disarming someone because they're too scared to do their job properly. Sounds simple enough to me.

What needs to change so that you're rights aren't infringed on??

The police officers of this country need to adhere to the law in every instance, and not discard it the second they feel "unsafe". Again, sounds simple enough to me. The constraints in which a police officer may act are clearly outlined.

Better training? Different personnel? New laws? Stricter punishment for officers over stepping their bounds?

All of those would be a damn fine start.

(I'm not being a smart-a, I'm honestly asking these questions)

I have no desire to have my rights infringed on anymore than the next guy, and there is obviously a growing problem. I am interested though in getting to the root of it not just sitting around crying everytime I feel I or someone else was bullied. I want to write an editorial to the star on this topic of police overreacting, and I want to mention stories I've read here. But writing in with no suggestions on how to fix the problem is poor form. So I ask again what needs to change? I'm not educated enough on police training and tactics or their hiring process to make a smart judgement. So I'm asking for some real suggestions not just a bunch of "Don't tread on me" flag waving.

A scathing indictment of our academic institutions. If you don't understand what I posted, then I don't know what to tell you. I figured that EVERYONE would understand the simplicity of my statements. The police protect our freedoms when they do their jobs correctly and follow the law (in other words, do not infringe upon our freedoms).

My rebuttal is outlined in the quoted text, in red.

To be frank, I (respectfully) don't care much for your attitude. I am not ignoring the "real issues". I simply recognize that the problems and solutions are simple: in many cases, police violate the law and our rights, often in the name of "officer safety". Solution? Police need to adhere to the law, stop violating our rights, and if that is too difficult for an officer, that officer should be relieved.

 

[gunbunnies]

I think it really all just comes down to the Officers using alittle common sense while on the job... It's that simple.

 

[Hornett]

AorbornePFC:
I think that the problem is SOP with some departments.
The only way to change the SOP is to file a complaint.
No, SemperFiUSMC, I am not advocating 'letting it fester like an open sore.'
The SOP of disarming civilians and unloading magazines will never change until the public makes it clear that they won't tolerate it.

 

[Pale Rider]

I simply recognize that the problems and solutions are simple: in many cases, police violate the law and our rights, often in the name of "officer safety". Solution? Police need to adhere to the law, stop violating our rights, and if that is too difficult for an officer, that officer should be relieved.

I agree with this statement. What I'm asking and trying figure out is if they are being trained and told, through policy and SOPs, how to violate our rights and that it's ok. I apologize for my attitude it has served no worthwhile purpose in this discussion.

 

[PatriotPride]

I agree with this statement. What I'm asking and trying figure out is if they are being trained and told, through policy and SOPs, how to violate our rights and that it's ok. I apologize for my attitude it has served no worthwhile purpose in this discussion.

No harm no foul We're on the same side here---trying to pinpoint what exactly is wrong with police, and finding the best way to fix it.

I have witnessed first hand the SOP of some departments, and I can tell you that without a doubt many SOPs and policies violate our rights. I have the Porter County Sheriff's Department SOP and Policy manuals right now, and some of the stuff in there is worthy of an EPIC facepalm.

 

[XMil]

Can you post a good example?

 

[ATM]

...some of the stuff in there is worthy of an EPIC facepalm.

Sometimes, words are just not enough.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/break_room/57442-facepalm.html

 

[PatriotPride]

Can you post a good example?

Yes, here's one:

"Standard Operating Procedure PTL-026: Firearms Seized for Safekeeping:

Generally, property can only be seized/confiscated as evidence of a crime or other investigation. However, it is the policy of this department to seize weapons for safekeeping if there is such imminent danger that the weapons must be seized to avoid harm. Weapons shall NOT be returned to the owner without an order from the court."


Never mind what the law is, it is THEIR policy to do what they want until the court forces them to cease. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. You're NOT taking any firearm from me based off of that SOP. It's as simple as that.

 

[Tactical Dave]

This is the first time I have seen this thread and no I don't want to read all of it but it seems more and more that people would rather complain on the internet then complain to IA/supervisors....

Officers removing a firearm is pretty standard... it happens far more then it does not happen.... I don't know why it really surpises anyone when it does happen.

 

[E5RANGER375]

I understand and honestly agree with you, my question is, are you saying the problem is the individual officers or the SOPs?? That's really what I'm curious about, how do we fix the problem? Are departments not training guys properly or are they hiring too many scared weenies who can't handle not having an army behind them? Or maybe they're hiring too many rambo wannabes? I don't know, but I've seen a lot of trash talk and strong opinions in this thread but no real discussion of what is the root of the problem and how to fix it. Being an a-hole when confronted by police won't fix it. Stopping former military personnel from becoming cops wont fix it. is a better hiring process needed? Maybe reworking the profile of what makes a good officer? I'm curious.

And I'm not saying coming home is more important than protecting freedom, just that I know covering mine and my comrades' backsides would be a high priority.

I believe that more than not the problem lies with the people who write the SOPs and also some of the instructors and training also. I also do believe that too many people with "little man syndrom" are hired to be police. That means they were picked on their whole lives and now wanna be a cop (maybe even subcontiously) to prove something or get back at the world. They still cant eep me from laughing at them though
Those are the ones that I think are over the top.
I dont think the former military guys are the ones to wory about. The people in life that KNOW they can kick your ass arent the ones who constantly throw it in your face or abuse you. The people that KNOW they can do it, only do it as a last resort if no other option is on the table. The ones who are unsure and not confident in their abilities are the ones who mostly cause the problems and try to hide behind their badge. I know what I could do to them if I realy wanted to, and that in itself is all the satisfaction I need. I dont need to act it out. Just knowing is pure joy. And I could do it without a gun so if disarming me is what makes them feel safe then whatever, its a false sense of security if I realy wanted to hurt them I assure you. But then again, I am the guy that will keep TOTALY silent with a cop. I wont be running my mouth and threatening them.

I stand by this; Most of the out of control cops that abuse their powers and break the law, have "little man syndrom". The good cops who take their career seriously and do it for the right reasons and dont violate the law, are not the ones we need to wory about. Its the LITTLE MAN!!!

 

[E5RANGER375]

This is the first time I have seen this thread and no I don't want to read all of it but it seems more and more that people would rather complain on the internet then complain to IA/supervisors....

Officers removing a firearm is pretty standard... it happens far more then it does not happen.... I don't know why it really surpises anyone when it does happen.

I havent had it personaly happen. If it did, you know my character and you can bet your house that I will do EXACTLY the same thing as what I post here if it does happen to me or my family. Im not full of talk. I will walk the walk. not to try and be a bad ass or disrespectfull, but because ITS THE RIGHT THING TO DO and I dont compromise my core values for anyone or anything!!! Just because a cop is a cop, doesnt immediately earn him any more respect than I would give to any other citizen.

 

[Tactical Dave]

I havent had it personaly happen. If it did, you know my character and you can bet your house that I will do EXACTLY the same thing as what I post here if it does happen to me or my family. Im not full of talk. I will walk the walk. not to try and be a bad ass or disrespectfull, but because ITS THE RIGHT THING TO DO and I dont compromise my core values for anyone or anything!!! Just because a cop is a cop, doesnt immediately earn him any more respect than I would give to any other citizen.

I agree with all that know know you will do what you say.

The other day I was showing my neighbor my XD and was just standing their holding it out in the open...... I was not worried about the cop neigbor next door because from what I can tell he does not have short man syndrome.... he would walk over and want to check it out also just because I am sure he also likes guns.

 

[public servant]

I dont think the former military guys are the ones to wory about. The people in life that KNOW they can kick your ass arent the ones who constantly throw it in your face or abuse you. The people that KNOW they can do it...

Im not full of talk. I will walk the walk.

Your arm has got to be killing you... Here...try this.

 

[PatriotPride]

Your arm has got to be killing you... Here...try this.

Nah...this sums it up better:

FULL OF WIN!

 

[MPD179]

A lot could be said after reading through all these pages. Most will criticize the police regardless of the outcome or how they respond to various situations. But until your in those situations & understand how & why the police have set procedures or SOP's, this will always be a heated topic or debate. The bottom line is most folks don't fully understand what the police do or experience from day to day.

I have read that some will refuse to speak to the police and being in the business I can say this will do nothing more than complicate your situation at hand. When we deal with a "real bad guy" mostly the first thing we encounter is passive resistance. They either refuse to speak to us, become argumentative, go hands on, or attempt to flee. We expect nothing but the worse from that point on and the high alert meter starts the incline. Depending on the experience of the officer it could get ugly.

I have read people saying we react the way we do because we are scared or simply just don't care about peoples rights, or they don't do things like they use to. The police do not have a crystal ball that says your a good guy or how their given situation will turn out. The times have changed and believe it or not, our job is very dangerous. Please, don't belittle our professon or make less of the sacrafices many LEO's have made every year serving you! I mean comon, we have to wear a bullet proof vest and required to carry a gun on the job!

It is true that police are not soldiers but the situations we deal with are similar in nature. I have been shot at, seen death in every form imaginable, foot pursuits, fistfights, done the high speed pursuits, etc. I have also held the grieving family members of lost loved ones, ran down your dogs when they got loose, looked for your lost kids, and pushed your car out of the ditch. I have even been bitten in the arse by your German Sheppard (true story)! The difference our main objective is to protect & serve -vs- kill the enemy. In all of this, are decisions we are required to make in the heat of the moment. Are we right all the time... nope! When your exposed to these situations on a daily basis your going to screw something up. You see we are human like you and make mistakes.

Presenting an LTCH doesn't say your a upstanding role model the same as wearing a badge doesn't say your the LEO of the year. I once responded to a "suspicious subject" parked in a vehicle. Rolled up looked in and saw a handgun sitting on the floor board beneath him. I asked him to step out of the car and away from the vehcile for "officer safety". He presented his valid 4 year LTCH for the weapon and I ran a check on his drivers license. As dispatch responded "Sig 40" (wanted for warrant) for murder over the radio and the fight was on as he was trying to get to the gun in the floor board. Fortunately, I was a better wrestler than he was. But the fact is had I let my guard down and became officer friendly in this situation because he presented an LTCH, I probably would be here typing this today.

Personally, would I have handled this any different than what the op descirbed? If im there for an armed robbery in progress, I'm expecting to find a suspect or suspects armed to the teeth and ready for a fight! Will I go alone .... NOPE! .... I'm coordinating my arrival with several other guys to surround the business to prevent escape, and remove other people safely from the scene. Why? because im there to win the fight & do my job safely. If doing my job safely for the other officers, citizens, or myself makes me a coward then dangit, I guess im a coward! Would the op get a pistol pointed at him? Dunno, I would have to be there in the situation with the information the Officers had at the time. I would have taken the weapon and checked him out (LTCH, IDACS, serial number check, & verify he was suppose to be there) and after realizing he was good to go, I would apologize for the inconveinence and explain the whats and whys everything happened. We would have parted shaking hands following a friendly conversation. I wouldn't have removed the bullets from his magazines but that might be their SOP's or training. No rights are violated in this situation imo... his weapon was returned to him following the investigation of an alleged crime and he is free to carry today. I think he did well in handling his case. It's all in how you preceive the situation and how you articulate it.

Being a police officer in todays ever changing society is extremely demanding. I will tell you it's the best job on planet earth! I don't make a lot of money doing it, but I knew that when I got into the business. Please keep in mind these guys work 40+ hours week, 365 days a year, with dealing with the worst your community has to offer. Interactions with law abiding citizens are few as we mostly deal with the lawless society. Oh.... and for the record another pet peeve of mine.... if your my boss .... can I get a pay raise please? It's been several years since my last $500 year raise and before the economy took a dump. Oh and my insurance premiums just raised 20% so im making less than I was before. Oh... and they took our take home cars away .... you know the "part of our salary" package I hired in with that was suppose to make up 5k per year. Did I say this is the best job on planet earth! Yes, when I retire I intend on writing a book of all the crazy, hularious, dangerous, circumstances I have come across.... stay tuned!

AirbornePFC please do a ride along with an LEO agency prior to writing your article so you have personal experience in the shoes of the LEO community. Perferablly, with an active agency that has a high call volume. But be careful .... thats how i got sucked into the job!

 

[E5RANGER375]

Your arm has got to be killing you... Here...try this.

thats why I have a wife

kinda seems stupid i have to TALK about it to make my point , but in real life i dont threaten or try to intimidate.

Its like if you ever go against a good knife fighter, you will never know it till your cut and its too late. Kinda the same thing i was meaning above.

 

[PatriotPride]

I have knives but I'm not married yet...where does that leave me?

Am I up a river of excrement in a Native American vessel without a means of propulsion?

 

[Tactical Dave]

Your arm has got to be killing you... Here...try this.

That is one SCARY looking chick!.

 

[E5RANGER375]

The bottom line is most folks don't fully understand what the police do or experience from day to day.

I have read that some will refuse to speak to the police and being in the business I can say this will do nothing more than complicate your situation at hand. When we deal with a "real bad guy" mostly the first thing we encounter is passive resistance. They either refuse to speak to us, become argumentative, go hands on, or attempt to flee. We expect nothing but the worse from that point on and the high alert meter starts the incline. Depending on the experience of the officer it could get ugly.

I have read people saying we react the way we do because we are scared or simply just don't care about peoples rights, or they don't do things like they use to. The police do not have a crystal ball that says your a good guy or how their given situation will turn out. The times have changed and believe it or not, our job is very dangerous. Please, don't belittle our professon or make less of the sacrafices many LEO's have made every year serving you! I mean comon, we have to wear a bullet proof vest and required to carry a gun on the job!

I have family and best freinds who are cops at rankings from the top to the bottom, so I think I understand it pretty well. and thats what has helped me form a lot of my opinions about LE and decide not to pursue a career in it.

If me being silent scares a cop then they are the biggest P***y I have ever met. Its my right to remain silent at ANY point in their investigation, and If they dont like those rights then tough s***. would you rather i start bouncing around or figiting with my pants or rubbing my teeth?
I dont have a crystal ball either, so I dont know if Im dealing with barney or Andy, so expect me to treat you all the same : silent treatment. if you need answers talk to my lawyer. its innocent until proven guilty. cop dont want us to treat their Un-convicted drunk cop buddies like criminals, so why is it any different when you roll up one of us civilians?

Sacrifices, bla bla bla. Ive made sacrifices too and still do and im no cop nor would i EVER wanna be one. Now i just "sacrifice" for a paycheck like a cop does. I wear a vest and carry a lot bigger guns than you do to work, and I will bet you money I've been shot at in my job more times, but thats what i get paid for. A job is a job, and you know the risk before you take it. dont take it and then come looking for a pitty party because your scared of what might happen at work. the odds you have to stay alive compared to my odds are A LOT better. I dont sit and think about it nor do i try to BS people and make them think my job is more dangerous than what it realy is, i just do my job.

I'd love to have a normal factory job and be able to support my family, but sadly military experience doesnt count for s*** in this country, so I'm still a trigger puller, and hope i can live long enough to save the money to start my own business. I do it for the money now and im not gonna say its for anything else. a lot of cops are no different, its for the money. theres nothing to be ashamed of for admitting it. everyone needs money to live. just dont pretend its for more when its not. sure theres emotional attachments at any career, but the main reason is usualy all the same .... money