Surrounded by cops today

[pig957]

It seem to me that the idoit employee was the problem.

 

[23mar03]

Coming from the LEO side of the issue, I would had have you do the same things, except, when I found out that you were legit, I would have returned your firearm to you w/o empting the mags.
Coming onto a scene, especially a robbery call, you don't know what to expect. Guns drawn is a appropriate response, because there is already reasonable suspicion that criminal activity is has taken or is taking place.
Once contact is made, identifying you/associates is priority. While they are running your name, they need to make sure that they are safe from you/associates. In that situation, nothing is gained by not admitting your LTCH status. However, if you deny having a firearm and they discover one on you, well then you at the least have a false informing charge. While your identity is in question, then disarming you is a wise choice.
According to US Supreme Court decision Terry v. Ohio, Leo's are authorized to do a pat down of your outer layer of clothing to check for weapons if they are able to point to specific and articulatory facts which, taken together with rational inferences from those facts, reasonably warrant their actions.
Next, I would check to see if a crime was or is being commited(he skipped this part, being that your firearm freaked him out). No crime? then on to the next question.

Also other questions need to be answered. Are you who you say you are? Does the LTCH and ID match up? Do you have any outstanding warrants?
Having proved who you are and that you have no warrants, the only other question is do you have authorization to be there? That is the limit to law enforcement's interest in you.

I do agree that them unloading your mags and not returning them to your person after they confirmed your identity was rude and disrespectful. After you are proven a law-biding citizen, you have the same right to carry a firearm as any leo, and because of that, you should complain.
Just my .

Semper Fi-

 

[Hornett]

^^^^ I repped you for that.

However, I am more and more convinced that 23mar03 types are becoming fewer. When cops start asking about weapons, they are the ones that are paranoid gun haters.

If you read the OP you will find that the officer asked out of the blue if he had any weapons on him, only then did the OP produce a LTCH. I wonder if you (23mar03 and other offices on this board) would have even asked about weapons. I really doubt it.

So, you see, the asking of the question, to me, is a GIANT red flag.

 

[dross]

Coming from the LEO side of the issue, I would had have you do the same things, except, when I found out that you were legit, I would have returned your firearm to you w/o empting the mags.
Coming onto a scene, especially a robbery call, you don't know what to expect. Guns drawn is a appropriate response, because there is already reasonable suspicion that criminal activity is has taken or is taking place.
Once contact is made, identifying you/associates is priority. While they are running your name, they need to make sure that they are safe from you/associates. In that situation, nothing is gained by not admitting your LTCH status. However, if you deny having a firearm and they discover one on you, well then you at the least have a false informing charge. While your identity is in question, then disarming you is a wise choice.
According to US Supreme Court decision Terry v. Ohio, Leo's are authorized to do a pat down of your outer layer of clothing to check for weapons if they are able to point to specific and articulatory facts which, taken together with rational inferences from those facts, reasonably warrant their actions.
Next, I would check to see if a crime was or is being commited(he skipped this part, being that your firearm freaked him out). No crime? then on to the next question.

Also other questions need to be answered. Are you who you say you are? Does the LTCH and ID match up? Do you have any outstanding warrants?
Having proved who you are and that you have no warrants, the only other question is do you have authorization to be there? That is the limit to law enforcement's interest in you.

I do agree that them unloading your mags and not returning them to your person after they confirmed your identity was rude and disrespectful. After you are proven a law-biding citizen, you have the same right to carry a firearm as any leo, and because of that, you should complain.
Just my .

Semper Fi-

To me, emptying the magazines can't be taken alone. To me it casts a light on some of their other actions.

Someone made a good point earlier. Did they run a check on his vehicle? If not, why not?

 

[BillD]

That would possibly be funny if it wasn't SO FREAKIN' TRUE.

Some things are just so irresponsible to joke around about (I assume you are trying to joke aren't you? ). Like the president joking that he would like to be dictator, or a priest joking around about molesting chior boys or cops joking around on a public forum that they have "priveleges" because they're cops. Some "jokes" are just innapropriate.

I didn't mean it as a joke. It's the freaking truth as you pointed out.

Who else can run 85 mph, damn near run cars off the road, just to meet another club member for coffee?

 

[dross]

Some things are just so irresponsible to joke around about (I assume you are trying to joke aren't you? ). Like the president joking that he would like to be dictator, or a priest joking around about molesting chior boys or cops joking around on a public forum that they have "priveleges" because they're cops. Some "jokes" are just innapropriate.

I honestly don't think he was joking.

 

[23mar03]

To me, emptying the magazines can't be taken alone. To me it casts a light on some of their other actions.

??

 

[STRIKER]

*How it could have gone down*


"Hey there, we got a report of a possible robbery."

"Really? I haven't seen anyone else back here, officer."

"Thanks. You be careful fixing that light."


Honestly, I'm not sure why it went down any differently than that.

Yeah, me neither - a person that has a job automatically makes them 100% good guy + no one lies to the police or tries to look innocent after a crime.

 

[STRIKER]

I must have missed the part where the police did something wrong. As stated above, he was at the scene of a possible burglary with a firearm. The mere fact that he has a permit means absolutely nothing. Once he was run and the situation was straightened out, his sidearm was returned (left for him to retrieve). You can all whine about his rights being violated, but guess what, they weren't.

Agreed, his rights weren't violated - although I do think emptying the magazines was over the top.

I find it HILARIOUS that some people think that a LTCH is almost a "get out of jail free card" or a "100% good guy for life no need to ever check me out" card - it is only what it is, a License to Carry a Handgun - (and that's all)...sadly people that have these still break the law, (I know mind BLOWING)

 

[23mar03]

Yeah, me neither - a person that has a job automatically makes them 100% good guy + no one lies to the police or tries to look innocent after a crime.

People that have a job arn't neccessarily good. Just arrested a drug dealing doctor, but a nice guy!

Also, almost everyone that is arrest lies to the cops.

Ex-
Cop:Hey man, do you have any drugs on you?
Suspect: no, I don't do drugs.
Cop(after placing him in custody for outstanding warrants and pulling a large rock of crack the size of a ping pong ball from his pocket) What's this in your pocket?
Suspect: Honestly man, I didn't know that was in there.....(lie lie lie)

 

[BillD]

Agreed, his rights weren't violated - although I do think emptying the magazines was over the top.

I find it HILARIOUS that some people think that a LTCH is almost a "get out of jail free card" or a "100% good guy for life no need to ever check me out" card - it is only what it is, a License to Carry a Handgun - (and that's all)...sadly people that have these still break the law, (I know mind BLOWING)

Yeah, I heard a lot of cops break the law too. Mind blowing, isn't it?

 

[Eddie]

Agreed, his rights weren't violated - although I do think emptying the magazines was over the top.

I find it HILARIOUS that some people think that a LTCH is almost a "get out of jail free card" or a "100% good guy for life no need to ever check me out" card - it is only what it is, a License to Carry a Handgun - (and that's all)...sadly people that have these still break the law, (I know mind BLOWING)

But once a LEO is shown the LTCH, then they can't base a pat down or any other searches on the mere presence of a weapon since the weapon is lawfully possessed. Now, what else is there? A citizen complaint that they are being robbed and a repairman making an obvious repair to a building. What is the connection? What is there to make a cop think that a crime is occuring?

 

[MinuteMan47]

Being a LEO is being part of an exclusive club. Membership has it's privileges.

You've got that part right.

Thanks for painting a better picture for us. Don't cry about LEO bashing when you just add fuel to the fire. Why is it that you think LEOs are higher up and have more privileges than any other citizen?

Agreed, his rights weren't violated - although I do think emptying the magazines was over the top.

I find it HILARIOUS that some people think that a LTCH is almost a "get out of jail free card" or a "100% good guy for life no need to ever check me out" card - it is only what it is, a License to Carry a Handgun - (and that's all)...sadly people that have these still break the law, (I know mind BLOWING)

Get out of jail FREE card? Why would I need one of those when I am doing NOTHING ILLEGAL to be put in jail to begin with.

...and you might want to re-read the constitution. His rights WERE violated.

 

[STRIKER]

But once a LEO is shown the LTCH, then they can't base a pat down or any other searches on the mere presence of a weapon since the weapon is lawfully possessed. Now, what else is there? A citizen complaint that they are being robbed and a repairman making an obvious repair to a building. What is the connection? What is there to make a cop think that a crime is occuring?

Just because he was shown a pink piece of paper doesn't mean he
- is innocent, doesn't have another gun, was not robbing the place when the call was made and is now repairing a bulb, etc

Ex -

Call is placed, a woman reports she was being threatened and the suspect stated he was going to rape her, she never saw the man but could hear him screaming from the back of the home.

Police show up there's a guy mowing this home's front lawn. Police ask if he has a weapon on him, he states he does and shows his LTCH. Police let the man go when the LTCH is shown because he's obviously a 100% upstanding/innocent citizen and is obviously mowing a lawn.

However, the lady had no idea someone was mowing the front lawn.

Now if you're this lady's husband are you happy with the service provided by the local PD?

 

[E5RANGER375]

too many cops think that their safety is more important than respecting the rights of citizens and following the law. maybe a lot of it has to do with poor training. If an FTO tells an officer this is the way we do it, then i realy dont see the rookie arguing with his FTO unless he wants punched in the d***, especialy if it has to do with sticking up for a citizen. This is my opinion on this matter and the way i see it based on true stories and peoples personal experiences and also LEO strories. No, i dont think its all cops, but this kind of bad behavior is starting to be common and accepted within the LEO community, or maybe its just that because of technology we are just catching them in the act more than before. i think alittle of both.

If an LEO thinks he needs to disarm a LTCH holder who is carrying, then maybe he needs to get more training. why do cops carry guns and wear vest?

The LEO on here mentioned that if the ID's matched he would use that as a + for the citizen in determining what to do. well what if you come across a citizen like me who knows his rights and refuses to give you my drivers license on the street? and just gives you my LTCH IF you seen my weapon. I dont have to give you my license. and by you asking me for it your trying to instigate and look for some reason for a charge on me. I am free to not be screened by the police. I dont have to prove to the police that im a law abiding citizen. I dont care if EVERY other suspect you have ever came across lies to you, you canT treat me like them, because im my own person, and am afforded rights under the law, that dont include being profiled with johnny the meth head.
Also, you wont be patting me down.

 

[Eddie]

Just because he was shown a pink piece of paper doesn't mean he
- is innocent, doesn't have another gun, was not robbing the place when the call was made and is now repairing a bulb, etc

Ex -

Call is placed, a woman reports she was being threatened and the suspect stated he was going to rape her, she never saw the man but could hear him screaming from the back of the home.

Police show up there's a guy mowing this home's front lawn. Police ask if he has a weapon on him, he states he does and shows his LTCH. Police let the man go when the LTCH is shown because he's obviously a 100% upstanding/innocent citizen and is obviously mowing a lawn.

However, the lady had no idea someone was mowing the front lawn.

Now if you're this lady's husband are you happy with the service provided?

Fortunately though the law does not work that way. The citizen is under no obligation to prove his innocence. The police need some sort of grounds before they can detain a guy, take away his private property and search him. If he has a gun and a LTCH what are the grounds for searching and detaining him? It isn't illegal to repair a light. It isn't illegal to be on a ladder. There was no description of any suspect. What is the basis for the stop?

 

[BillD]

Thank for painting a better picture for us. Don't cry about LEO bashing when you just add fuel to the fire. Why is it that you think LEOs are higher up and have more privileges than any other citizen?

.

Well, lets see, how about they can pretty much drive 25 mph over the speed limit to take momma to get groceries, they can drive drunk, kill a guy and get their license back in a few days, they get to beat up suspects if no one is looking, they can put a guy in a squad car for legally carrying a gun, etc, etc.

I'd say they have privileges. I didn't say they were legal but as long as they go home safe every night, screw the Constitution.

Did I straighten in out for you?

 

[christman]

Fortunately though the law does not work that way. The citizen is under no obligation to prove his innocence. The police need some sort of grounds before they can detain a guy, take away his private property and search him. If he has a gun and a LTCH what are the grounds for searching and detaining him? It isn't illegal to repair a light. It isn't illegal to be on a ladder. There was no description of any suspect. What is the basis for the stop?

So many loopholes and reasons to detain. While things may never stick in the end, it will still take 48 hours away from the citizen and do nothing most of the time to the department other than a "hey dont do that" in private. Sad, but true. These things are used a lot of times to really try and find something more to go on for a real case, but unfortunately they can also be used on upstanding citizens when things go wonky. And like anything, a few bad apples ruin the bunch.

 

[MinuteMan47]

Well, lets see, how about they can pretty much drive 25 mph over the speed limit to take momma to get groceries, they can drive drunk, kill a guy and get their license back in a few days, they get to beat up suspects if no one is looking, they can put a guy in a squad car for legally carrying a gun, etc, etc.

I'd say they have privileges. I didn't say they were legal but as long as they go home safe every night, screw the Constitution.

Did I straighten in out for you?

Bill, I have always been STRAIGHT!

I had to use your quote to show what Gabriel had responded to....

I already know that LEOs THINK they have more privileges. If you refer to a post of mine earlier in this thread I thought I was clear when I said this would have NEVER happened to an off duty LEO, because once he showed his badge (membership card) then they would have said "OH! Why didn't you just say so, HAVE A NICE DAY!"

 

[dross]

Bill, I have always been STRAIGHT!

Apparently you're not counting that incident in summer camp that you've never told anyone about.