State Police Getting Rid of Glock 21s?

[danielson]

wow... Never would have though a weapon light even had the ability of changing the weapons performance.

 

[GlockRock]

I spoke to a Corporal with ISP tonight about the gun issue. From what he has been told, they are looking into Sigs in 357sig to replace the glock 21's.

 

[Magnum]

I spoke to a Corporal with ISP tonight about the gun issue. From what he has been told, they are looking into Sigs in 357sig to replace the glock 21's.

226's?

 

[MikeDVB]

IMPD did. Our 3rd gen Glock 22's had multiple failures when you attached a light to the rail. I would have a FTE about 1 round in 3 magazines.

Glock replaced our mags and said the stiffer springs would fix it. It didn't. My Glock still hung up about 1 round in every 3 magazines.

It ran, and continues to run 100%, without a light on the rail (I bought it back) but no way would I trust it with the light on it.

Sheer curiosity here, what do you think having the light is causing?

The frame to flex? Just wondering how attaching a light could cause those failures - not doubting you that they did.

 

[in625shooter]

I think it's an oversight in training...though it used to be pretty standard when Glocks only came with non drop free mags. Magazines, even ones that normally drop free, stick for all sorts of reasons. Dirt, odd shooting positions, wearing gloves or just having big hands on a smaller gun can impede magazines from dropping free. People with smaller hands frequently need to use the off hand thumb on the magazine release to maintain a full firing grip. When taught to reorient the gun in their hand to accomplish this, other than breaking the firing grip, they often orient the gun in a way where the magazine well is no longer down. Then there's the issue of an unrecognized type 3 malfunction. If your support hand is already moving from the gun to your belt line, why not strip the magazine and bring it out of your path of travel? That's what I'm talking about, doing more than one thing at once.

Not to get off topic but Glock re did their magazines for the American market because they didn't drop free as was the European doctoron (remember the original SIG heel mag button?).

What you call an oversight in training isn't really. As far as training an agency there are a couple levels. The basic one where we have to dumb it down for the lowest common denominator. Then the more tactical type and then the Real advanced shooting (SWAT, Sniper etc). Sometimes as far as a department you have to stay within a box of policy on what you are allowed to teach etc. Yes you teach them to do what they have to do to go home but at the same time you still have to stay within that box due to agency lawyers and those lowest denominator folks!

As a side not the FED's are teaching (gravitating towards) not using the slide stop for the emergency reloads. In after action shooting investigations they have found that the Officers trained to use that methods (usually the Glock folks since that is what Glock taught since their slide stop wasn't much to hit) got their weapon back in the fight quicker. Under stress most folks lost the fine motor skill to manipulate the slide stop with their thumb. Glock trained (or shooters that pulled on the slide) were quicker/smoother.

Now back on the ISP. Hopefully they will get a firearm that works for their methods. A SIG 357 would be a fine choice.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

wow... Never would have though a weapon light even had the ability of changing the weapons performance.

It SHOULDN'T... But it certainly CAN.

Especially with polymer firearms.

The inward compression of the "screws" or "bolts" or however it's attached coupled with the extra weight on the front can do some funny things with the recoil impulse/timing of the gun.

A smaller more compact light on a larger firearm may not cause issues. But a full-sized "big" light on the same gun may cause issues.

 

[rhino]

The problems with the ISP G22s were widespread and in my guestimation the result of a bad production run of the guns. According to reports here on INGO in a few topics, the Glock engineers were unable to solve the problems with multiple guns. I think it went beyond the known issues of weapon mounted lights, but I wasn't there.

The chosen solution was trading for Glock 17s for everyone. Which work all the time for almost everyone, even with lights mounted.

 

[Mike Elzinga]

This is a training issue. Manually strip the magazine every time and you'll never have the problem in any gun, regardless of the reason they are sticking. This has the added bonus of you being able to get that dropping magazine out of your line of travel and doesn't slow doesn't measurably slow the reload as your support hand is coming from the gun to your belt line regardless.

I agree that this should be a regular part of malfunction clearance drills, but the idea of "getting it out of your line of travel" bit isn't really valid. In order to cross your hands up and have a properly dropped mag get in the way, requires you to be doing reloads at a speed reserved for the fastest 10 guys in the world. It's used to be a parlor trick at IPSC matches to catch the old mag on a reload and it was very tough to do, you have to be very close or under the 1 second reload mark. Also the "Glock flip" has been used for years to cure this problem altogether.

 

[aaron580]

I spoke to a Corporal with ISP tonight about the gun issue. From what he has been told, they are looking into Sigs in 357sig to replace the glock 21's.

Interesting.... Id me surprised if thats what they replace them with.

 

[MolonLabe7]

I spoke to a Corporal with ISP tonight about the gun issue. From what he has been told, they are looking into Sigs in 357sig to replace the glock 21's.

I would be surprised if they replaced a glock 21 with a 357 sig. I would see them sticking to the .45 acp or a .40. just my

 

[Skywired]

As I said mine has run fine. The problems others are having include the mag sticking in the magazine well, FTF, FTE and casings ejecting in the face of the shooter. I like mine and don't really want to switch. I doubt they will ask my opinion.

We briefly had Gen3 Glock 22's several years ago and had problems. The solution was for Glock to give us Glock 17's to replace the problematic G 22's. The previous super switched to the Gen 4 Glock 21's just prior to his leaving office. We all have to wait to see what the firearms committee and the new super decide about the Glock 21's.

I have not read all the post's due to limited time but I do wonder how ISP has so many problems with Glock products. No one else seems to. I semi annually service around 50 Glocks. Some of those see some serious usage. It is very rare to have any problems out of them at all. Strange IMO.

It MAY just be coincidence, but the "new super" happens to be the "old sheriff" of Hamilton County, who decided that the G22's they had were not dependable. GLOCK was not able to meet his level of satisfaction, so he switched: deputy's choice....9mm or .45ACP.....but, still GLOCK.

So, my $$$ sez ISP is gonna change pistols. But they will stay put with GLOCK. Other opinions may vary. Professionals only; kids' do not try this at home..

 

[Skywired]

It MAY just be coincidence, but the "new super" happens to be the "old sheriff" of Hamilton County, who decided that the G22's they had were not dependable. GLOCK was not able to meet his level of satisfaction, so he switched: deputy's choice....9mm or .45ACP.....but, still GLOCK.

So, my $$$ sez ISP is gonna change pistols. But they will stay put with GLOCK. Other opinions may vary. Professionals only; kids' do not try this at home..

On an interesting side note.... wanna know how the 9mm vs .45acp tally came out?

60% of the road deputies chose the 9MM.....

 

[TheReaper]

They had Glock 17s, arguably the most reliable self-loading handgun on the market, and just had to switch to something else (i.e. the G 21). Why fix something that isn't broken?

This is NOT true. The G17's that the ISP was getting in for the new recruits had a lot of problems, hence the reason for the switch.

 

[Hazwhopper]

I just bought a new Glock 21. With my discount for being first responder and former USMC w/honorable discharge, I was able to get a gen4 for 491 plus tax. It is nice. I love the 13 round mags and they dropped just fine. However, I understand that they are new and everything should work correctly. I bought 2 more mags for training. I don't use the training mags for my everyday carry.
I would not like carrying this weapon everyday/all day long. I do like the Glocks and like the 1911's I "feel" like I can hit anything I am at. Just training though. Very different in real world circumstances.

 

[TheReaper]

I bet it probably has more to do with the number of AD's.
Don't ISP personnel of a certain rank carry a "firearms rules card" or similar to grill underlings due to the number of AD's had with their Glocks? That might have been 3 or 4 yrs ago.
Little cards probably didn't help so the next political/legal move to look like they can solve a problem is to just switch brands.
Calling it a mag issue instead of an AD issue (who knows what lawsuits may be pending) sure helps

False

 

[TheReaper]

I have not read all the post's due to limited time but I do wonder how ISP has so many problems with Glock products. No one else seems to. I semi annually service around 50 Glocks. Some of those see some serious usage. It is very rare to have any problems out of them at all. Strange IMO.

Do a search, the Illinois State Police has had A LOT of problems with their Glocks, it's not just the Indiana State Police.

 

[TheReaper]

The problems with the ISP G22s were widespread and in my guestimation the result of a bad production run of the guns. According to reports here on INGO in a few topics, the Glock engineers were unable to solve the problems with multiple guns. I think it went beyond the known issues of weapon mounted lights, but I wasn't there.

The chosen solution was trading for Glock 17s for everyone. Which work all the time for almost everyone, even with lights mounted.

Not true of the current production G17's.

 

[TheReaper]

This is a training issue. Manually strip the magazine every time and you'll never have the problem in any gun, regardless of the reason they are sticking. This has the added bonus of you being able to get that dropping magazine out of your line of travel and doesn't slow doesn't measurably slow the reload as your support hand is coming from the gun to your belt line regardless.

Retraining the entire ISP, to conform to one manufacturer trying to cover up problems with their pistol is not a good idea for ISP....some will never admit that there are problems with Glocks...many have drank the Kool Aid as far as Glock is concerned.

 

[TheReaper]

I just bought a new Glock 21. With my discount for being first responder and former USMC w/honorable discharge, I was able to get a gen4 for 491 plus tax. It is nice. I love the 13 round mags and they dropped just fine. However, I understand that they are new and everything should work correctly. I bought 2 more mags for training. I don't use the training mags for my everyday carry.
I would not like carrying this weapon everyday/all day long. I do like the Glocks and like the 1911's I "feel" like I can hit anything I am at. Just training though. Very different in real world circumstances.

Many change the more that you shoot them. This may not be the case after a few hundred rounds.

 

[TLHelmer]

I would be surprised if they replaced a glock 21 with a 357 sig. I would see them sticking to the .45 acp or a .40. just my

I hope you are right, but I am hearing a lot of rumblings from committe members that 9 mm is cheaper than .45 acp.