Shooting at Empire State Building

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • phylodog

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    59   0   0
    Mar 7, 2008
    19,613
    113
    Arcadia
    First let's take a look at how people in NY react to a dangerous situation

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6f-bLxIJiVA&feature=player_embedded

    Hmmm. I can't imagine how in a city of over 8 million people who apparently like nothing more than to put themselves in the middle of a dangerous situation, someone who wasn't an intended target could get shot. I mean, in the movies whenever someone is shooting they never miss so how could it possible happen in real life?

    Training. Bloomberg, like the vast majority of politicians across the country has absolutely no clue what constitutes training, particularly quality firearms training. These types of shootings are not uncommon for the NYPD. I'm not flaming the officers but when you work for an agency which allows you to go to the range and shoot one or two qualifications a year, how could anyone possibly expect a different outcome? Shooting 30 or 60 rounds a year is not training. It will not improve weapon skills. It will not sustain weapon skills. Most NYPD officers are not regularly trained with firearms which is why they shoot an extremely high number of rounds and get precious few hits onto their targets.

    Anyone ever stop for a minute to consider the last time we had a shooting like this in Indianapolis? Been a long, long time. Anyone want to know why? Training. Our officers have spent 16 hours a year at firearms training for years, they fire approximately 500 rounds a year whether they like guns or not. We don't have situations like this here because of training.

    With the current budget limitations there are some who have set their sights on the money that could be saved by eliminating firearms training and moving backward 20 years to simply shooting a couple of qualifications a year. If that happens you can expect to see some NYPD style shootings here in Indianapolis. Stand by and brace for impact.
     

    churchmouse

    I still care....Really
    Emeritus
    Rating - 100%
    187   0   0
    Dec 7, 2011
    191,809
    152
    Speedway area
    It is unfortunate that the officers didn't have 100% accuracy with all their bullets hitting the perp. Even going to the range every day doesn't guarantee perfect accuracy.

    Next time you are in a real-life armed confrontation and have to fire your weapon to save your life, let us know how your accuracy and hit ratio turned out. Like I've said before, shooting at a moving human target is a lot different than shooting at stationary steel, cardboard, or paper.

    Very true statement. That said, how about some real world combat based training for these fellas. Might be a game changer.....yes.
     

    finnegan

    Sharpshooter
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    Nov 7, 2011
    536
    18
    Clark County
    The surveillance video is out. He definitely draws a gun on them. One starts strafing quickly and shooting one handed toward him and across the line of vehicle traffic, the other shuffles to the and maintains control of his weapon, but fires with three people sitting chest high on a bench directly behind the shooter. All the injured were from police bullets. Tough situation for the two officers for sure.
    Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com
     

    Frank_N_Stein

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    79   0   0
    Nov 24, 2008
    10,284
    77
    Beech Grove, IN
    Very true statement. That said, how about some real world combat based training for these fellas. Might be a game changer.....yes.

    It is hard to have realistic combat training using live people. IMPD utilizes Simunitions in training in order to make it more realistic and attempt to practice force-on-force, but like live ammo the rounds are very expensive. If the department doesn't want to buy us the sim rounds, we don't get the training.
     

    Birds Away

    ex CZ afficionado.
    Emeritus
    Rating - 100%
    18   0   0
    Aug 29, 2011
    76,248
    113
    Monticello
    Actually, Frank, the perp was (for all intents and purposes) stationary. The video doesn't show him moving very much at all. He stopped and drew when confronted and barely moved at all. The cops were practically at point blank range.

    http://youtu.be/NWvrYOn9NPE

    Ok, I understand what the LEO is saying but, how can NINE people be injured in that scenario?
     

    churchmouse

    I still care....Really
    Emeritus
    Rating - 100%
    187   0   0
    Dec 7, 2011
    191,809
    152
    Speedway area
    First let's take a look at how people in NY react to a dangerous situation

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6f-bLxIJiVA&feature=player_embedded

    Hmmm. I can't imagine how in a city of over 8 million people who apparently like nothing more than to put themselves in the middle of a dangerous situation, someone who wasn't an intended target could get shot. I mean, in the movies whenever someone is shooting they never miss so how could it possible happen in real life?

    Training. Bloomberg, like the vast majority of politicians across the country has absolutely no clue what constitutes training, particularly quality firearms training. These types of shootings are not uncommon for the NYPD. I'm not flaming the officers but when you work for an agency which allows you to go to the range and shoot one or two qualifications a year, how could anyone possibly expect a different outcome? Shooting 30 or 60 rounds a year is not training. It will not improve weapon skills. It will not sustain weapon skills. Most NYPD officers are not regularly trained with firearms which is why they shoot an extremely high number of rounds and get precious few hits onto their targets.

    Anyone ever stop for a minute to consider the last time we had a shooting like this in Indianapolis? Been a long, long time. Anyone want to know why? Training. Our officers have spent 16 hours a year at firearms training for years, they fire approximately 500 rounds a year whether they like guns or not. We don't have situations like this here because of training.

    With the current budget limitations there are some who have set their sights on the money that could be saved by eliminating firearms training and moving backward 20 years to simply shooting a couple of qualifications a year. If that happens you can expect to see some NYPD style shootings here in Indianapolis. Stand by and brace for impact.

    I hope you know I am not bashing here. I do understand how you guys are ham stringed by the politico butt heads. I am just calling out for some real world tactical training for the fellas out there on the front lines. I guess the key part of this is "real world"
    No flame jobs or hating.

    If I were LEO I believe my own involvement in training would be key in this. Some personal effort might be in order.
    In my chosen field I have to continually stay abreast of new technology's and an ever changing environment. I have to do this on my own, on my own time or fall behind. JMHO. That and $1.25 will get me a small coffee at the corner joint.
     

    Bill of Rights

    Cogito, ergo porto.
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    7   0   0
    Apr 26, 2008
    18,096
    77
    Where's the bacon?
    Here's footage of the shooting. Doesn't look like the murderer even fired his gun. The cops just started blazing away as the bystanders ran like hell. To bad they didn't run faster.

    http://youtu.be/NWvrYOn9NPE

    He drew on them. Sure, they were chasing him down; he was a murder suspect and that's their job. From what I see there (and admittedly, this is not the best video there could be, though it may be the best there is of this scene,) as soon as he drew, they had a duty to end the threat he posed. That means, in his case, deadly force, and I don't think it counts as "blazing away" for them to draw their service weapons and fire at him, targeting center mass. Any of us would like to think we'd do the same, IMHO.

    As for running faster, I don't know about you, but I can't outrun a bullet. :twocents:

    Blessings,
    Bill
     

    churchmouse

    I still care....Really
    Emeritus
    Rating - 100%
    187   0   0
    Dec 7, 2011
    191,809
    152
    Speedway area
    It is hard to have realistic combat training using live people. IMPD utilizes Simunitions in training in order to make it more realistic and attempt to practice force-on-force, but like live ammo the rounds are very expensive. If the department doesn't want to buy us the sim rounds, we don't get the training.

    Always comes to funding. How do we change this????
     

    phylodog

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    59   0   0
    Mar 7, 2008
    19,613
    113
    Arcadia
    Whose standards should the average officer use when determining that their training is sufficient? I would argue that someone could train two hours a day, 365 days a year and still make a mistake in a real world situation. Someone could shoot two qualification courses a year for 10 years and perform admirably in a real world situation. So where does it end? Where is the line drawn?

    I believe that the citizens expect to not be shot by the officers sworn to protect them. I believe that expectation is reasonable. I also feel it is reasonable to expect the agency to provide quality training to prevent these types of things from happening. You either want trained officers or you don't. Crossing your fingers and hoping for the best doesn't work out too well.

    Firearms skills, particularly handgun skills, are extremely perishable. They must be practiced regularly if any level of proficiency is expected.
     

    churchmouse

    I still care....Really
    Emeritus
    Rating - 100%
    187   0   0
    Dec 7, 2011
    191,809
    152
    Speedway area
    Whose standards should the average officer use when determining that their training is sufficient?

    Firearms skills, particularly handgun skills, are extremely perishable. They must be practiced regularly if any level of proficiency is expected.

    Turned your post into a sound bite but these 2 points are important in all of this.
    To each there own levels???

    A standard to be set????

    Who is to say that is not guided by budgetary limitations????
     

    Frank_N_Stein

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    79   0   0
    Nov 24, 2008
    10,284
    77
    Beech Grove, IN
    Always comes to funding. How do we change this????

    Well for officers in Marion County it would start with rescinding the public subsidy of Lucas Oil Stadium and Banker's Life Fieldhouse. Or if the public is going to have to pay for games, they should pay for training courses and equipment as well. But that's just my :twocents:
     

    JetGirl

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    5   0   0
    May 7, 2008
    18,774
    83
    N/E Corner
    That was, well, wtf?

    I know, right?!
    SHTF and you run leaving your little girl behind. What an awesome display of concerned parenting.
    Near the end of all that, they reappear on the right edge of the frame...mom still running, trying to hide and not looking back...kid still confused, following...and trying to keep up.
     

    churchmouse

    I still care....Really
    Emeritus
    Rating - 100%
    187   0   0
    Dec 7, 2011
    191,809
    152
    Speedway area
    Mother of the year award in the black skirt.

    I had to watch this several times to get past the LEO actions in this and the black skirt. Lord help us all. Poor kid.
    The LEO on the left was in stance and directing his fire on the perp. but he hesitated way to long and dropped over so the running civilians were in the back drop. The one on the right was spraying and probably did all the harm but it is hard to tell.
     
    Top Bottom