Shooting at Empire State Building

[DownByTheTracks]

I know, right?!
SHTF and you run leaving your little girl behind. What an awesome display of concerned parenting.
Near the end of all that, they reappear on the right edge of the frame...mom still running, trying to hide and not looking back...kid still confused, following...and trying to keep up.

I bet her car has this (abandon) Kid's First plate!

 

[thumperdogg]

One officer shot 9 times, the other 7, all in a matter of 8 seconds. There was no time for aiming obviously. The perp had 10 bullet wounds and there were 9 bystanders hit as well.

16 shots = 10 in perp and 9 innocent shot

hmm...

 

[thumperdogg]

they just ran up on him, of course he would pull out his gun! Ever heard of the element of surprise? No wonder so many were hit, the one cop was shooting one handed like a gangsta!!

 

[JetGirl]

I had to watch this several times to get past the LEO actions in this and the black skirt. Lord help us all. Poor kid.

CLIFFS;


Here's a woman walking with a little girl...presumably her daughter;

Just walking along together...looks like the little girl is either reaching for her or holding her hand;

But uh-oh... shots ring out! Panic ensues! Mayhem... and the "mother" shoves in front of the little girl...
not to protect her...but to take off running and not look back!

Little girl...left to her own...totally confused, doesn't know what to do other than run the same direction and try to keep up;

The mom circles back into frame...still outrunning the kid and not bothering to look back;

Little girl appears after...still confused/scared...still trying to desperately keep up.

THAT, my friends...is the mother of the year, right there.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Whose standards should the average officer use when determining that their training is sufficient? I would argue that someone could train two hours a day, 365 days a year and still make a mistake in a real world situation. Someone could shoot two qualification courses a year for 10 years and perform admirably in a real world situation. So where does it end? Where is the line drawn?

I believe that the citizens expect to not be shot by the officers sworn to protect them. I believe that expectation is reasonable. I also feel it is reasonable to expect the agency to provide quality training to prevent these types of things from happening. You either want trained officers or you don't. Crossing your fingers and hoping for the best doesn't work out too well.

Firearms skills, particularly handgun skills, are extremely perishable. They must be practiced regularly if any level of proficiency is expected.

 

[actaeon277]

It is unfortunate that the officers didn't have 100% accuracy with all their bullets hitting the perp. Even going to the range every day doesn't guarantee perfect accuracy.

Next time you are in a real-life armed confrontation and have to fire your weapon to save your life, let us know how your accuracy and hit ratio turned out. Like I've said before, shooting at a moving human target is a lot different than shooting at stationary steel, cardboard, or paper.

Bloomberg is worried that REALISTIC TRAINING would make them look "bloodthirsty".

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

I had to watch this several times to get past the LEO actions in this and the black skirt. Lord help us all. Poor kid.
The LEO on the left was in stance and directing his fire on the perp. but he hesitated way to long and dropped over so the running civilians were in the back drop. The one on the right was spraying and probably did all the harm but it is hard to tell.

they just ran up on him, of course he would pull out his gun! Ever heard of the element of surprise? No wonder so many were hit, the one cop was shooting one handed like a gangsta!!

After you two were done ****ting in your pants what would your hit rate have been?

 

[phylodog]

they just ran up on him, of course he would pull out his gun! Ever heard of the element of surprise? No wonder so many were hit, the one cop was shooting one handed like a gangsta!!

You sure seem to have it all figured out, or at least you've identified what you perceive as errors in judgement and ability. What you haven't provided are any intelligent solutions. Just how long should the police allow an armed man who just committed a murder to continue walking the streets in a city of 8 million people before they intervene? How many isolated spots are there in NY city for the police to use to take him down?

I'll tell you what. You purchase a box of Simunition ammo. I'll provide the Simunition pistols.[STRIKE] We'll go out and recreate this scenario and I'll play the bad guy.[/STRIKE] On second thought, screw that. We'll go through some scenarios where you don't know what to expect since these officers didn't either. No protective wear other than eye protection. We'll see if your "movie" reality exists when you're the one facing down the barrel of a gun and trying to return fire without missing. We'll post the results here for all to see.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

I'll tell you what. You purchase a box of Simunition ammo. I'll provide the Simunition pistols.[STRIKE] We'll go out and recreate this scenario and I'll play the bad guy.[/STRIKE] On second thought, screw that. We'll go through some scenarios where you don't know what to expect since these officers didn't either. No protective wear other than eye protection. We'll see if your "movie" reality exists when you're the one facing down the barrel of a gun and trying to return fire without missing. We'll post the results here for all to see.

I'll buy his ammo.

 

[churchmouse]

CLIFFS;


Here's a woman walking with a little girl...presumably her daughter;

Just walking along together...looks like the little girl is either reaching for her or holding her hand;

But uh-oh... shots ring out! Panic ensues! Mayhem... and the "mother" shoves in front of the little girl...
not to protect her...but to take off running and not look back!

Little girl...left to her own...totally confused, doesn't know what to do other than run the same direction and try to keep up;

The mom circles back into frame...still outrunning the kid and not bothering to look back;

Little girl appears after...still confused/scared...still trying to desperately keep up.

THAT, my friends...is the mother of the year, right there.

Nice work. Puts her worthless A$$ in the spot light.

 

[churchmouse]

After you two were done ****ting in your pants what would your hit rate have been?

Just wondering what the hesitation was about, not saying I would do any better but if it is as it appears to be they were pursuing him after the fact so it should have been known he was armed and capable of hostility. Why pull up short or run straight at him. The advantage was theirs to take. They were side by side, lost some advantage--pulled up short possibly because of the civilians--total loss of tactical advantage and then the hesitation which led to the bullet spraying. Some of the civilians were most likely hit from over penetration when the officer fired and the folks running were in the line of fire. I would not want to be put into this scenario but I chose long ago not to pursue law enforcement. These LEO need more training in these scenarios. That is all I am pointing out.
This pulls us back to my initial post on lack of tactical training.


Some of my anxiety in that post was directed at the newly crowned mother of the year.

 

[actaeon277]

Phylo & Frank, sorry you're getting hurt, thinking more cop bashing is going on.
But, after any shooting, police or non-police, there will be questions about stray rounds.
And, most are in agreement (most) that IN police would have acted better.
Its training, training, training.
It will not guarantee a result.
But it does tip the scale.
And by the way, cops aren't the only ones to have been in a hot spot or two.

So stop acting like every one of us would have **** ourselves.
Some would have failed.
But my "opinion" is that would not be all of us.

 

[churchmouse]

Phylo & Frank, sorry you're getting hurt, thinking more cop bashing is going on.
But, after any shooting, police or non-police, there will be questions about stray rounds.
And, most are in agreement (most) that IN police would have acted better.
Its training, training, training.
It will not guarantee a result.
But it does tip the scale.
And by the way, cops aren't the only ones to have been in a hot spot or two.

So stop acting like every one of us would have **** ourselves.
Some would have failed.
But my "opinion" is that would not be all of us.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Absolutely this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[actaeon277]

And, I'm not ripping on you. Like your posts.
I just think you're taking it personal.

 

[phylodog]

Phylo & Frank, sorry you're getting hurt, thinking more cop bashing is going on.
But, after any shooting, police or non-police, there will be questions about stray rounds.
And, most are in agreement (most) that IN police would have acted better.
Its training, training, training.
It will not guarantee a result.
But it does tip the scale.
And by the way, cops aren't the only ones to have been in a hot spot or two.

So stop acting like every one of us would have **** ourselves.
Some would have failed.
But my "opinion" is that would not be all of us.

I'm not getting hurt and I haven't said anything about anyone ****ting themselves. What I've said is that when you fail to provide training to your officers you can expect them to perform poorly. I have also said that if you have never been in a situation like this you cannot sit back and try to tell anyone what you would have done.

I am trained to handle situations like this. I deal with armed people on a regular basis. I train officers how to deal with this type of situation. Yet you won't find me armchair quarterbacking anyone. I won't sit back and try to say what I would have done because I wasn't there. I didn't receive the training or the information those officers had. I don't know what was running through their minds or what they may have experienced earlier that day. Anyone who sits back after the fact and claims how they would have handled a situation differently is full of ****.

Poor training? Most likely. Room for improvement? Sure. Someone else could have done it better? No way to know.

I'm not taking it personally. I'm trying to provide some insight from someone who might know a thing or two about this. If you don't want to accept it, don't. No sweat off my back.

 

[NYFelon]

...How many isolated spots are there in NY city for the police to use to take him down?...

ZERO

At this time of day, there are literally hundreds of thousands of people on the street making their way to work in Manhattan. The area where the Empire State Building is, 34th street between 5th and Broadway, is one of the busiest areas of NYC, 24/7.

 

[phylodog]

ZERO

At this time of day, there are literally hundreds of thousands of people on the street making their way to work in Manhattan. The area where the Empire State Building is, 34th street between 5th and Broadway, is one of the busiest areas of NYC, 24/7.

Kind of what I figured. How long should the police wait to take down a person who has just shot and killed someone and is still armed in that area?

 

[Rookie]

I'm not getting hurt and I haven't said anything about anyone ****ting themselves. What I've said is that when you fail to provide training to your officers you can expect them to perform poorly. I have also said that if you have never been in a situation like this you cannot sit back and try to tell anyone what you would have done.

I am trained to handle situations like this. I deal with armed people on a regular basis. I train officers how to deal with this type of situation. Yet you won't find me armchair quarterbacking anyone. I won't sit back and try to say what I would have done because I wasn't there. I didn't receive the training or the information those officers had. I don't know what was running through their minds or what they may have experienced earlier that day. Anyone who sits back after the fact and claims how they would have handled a situation differently is full of ****.

Poor training? Most likely. Room for improvement? Sure. Someone else could have done it better? No way to know.

I'm not taking it personally. I'm trying to provide some insight from someone who might know a thing or two about this. If you don't want to accept it, don't. No sweat off my back.

The closest I've been to real life was a fire arms training simulator (F. A. T. S. machine) in the air force. Being law enforcement, we used it to learn how to react to situations. It was a pretty cool set up, huge screen that played the scenario, and a Beretta that was air powered to simulate recoil. Your shots showed on screen in the form of red dots.

Anyway, my first scenario was a routine traffic stop on a truck. As I'm walking up to the truck, a guy pops up from the bed with a shotgun. In a matter of seconds, I drew my firearm, dropped to a crouch, got a nice two hand grip, and shot five rounds, and the scenario was over. I killed the **** out of the tailgate and not one round hit the bad guy.

That's as close as I've come to real life, so I'm not saying they did horrible. I still think its funny that Bloomberg has to eat his words.

 

[thumperdogg]

After you two were done ****ting in your pants what would your hit rate have been?

Being that I am not a "specially trained" police officer, likely not real high. I think you may have skipped over my posts where I stated that I, as well as the public, hold police officers to a higher standard. After all, they are the only ones good enough to carry in NY correct?

 

[thumperdogg]

You sure seem to have it all figured out, or at least you've identified what you perceive as errors in judgement and ability. What you haven't provided are any intelligent solutions. Just how long should the police allow an armed man who just committed a murder to continue walking the streets in a city of 8 million people before they intervene? How many isolated spots are there in NY city for the police to use to take him down?

I'll tell you what. You purchase a box of Simunition ammo. I'll provide the Simunition pistols.[STRIKE] We'll go out and recreate this scenario and I'll play the bad guy.[/STRIKE] On second thought, screw that. We'll go through some scenarios where you don't know what to expect since these officers didn't either. No protective wear other than eye protection. We'll see if your "movie" reality exists when you're the one facing down the barrel of a gun and trying to return fire without missing. We'll post the results here for all to see.

Please refer to the above response to Frank_N_Stein